You wrote:
“You are!
There you go lying again. Show me the exact post where I ever claimed “Mary was sinless WITHOUT Christ’s sacrifice”. When you fail miserably - and you will - what will you do then? Will you come up with another straw man?
“You claim that she was made sinless BEFORE Christ’s sacrifice.”
Now you’re saying the issue is “BEFORE” whereas a minute ago you were claiming I said Mary was sinless “WITHOUT” Christ. BEFORE and WITHOUT are two different words and represent two different things. Jesus’ sacrifice is - in case you didn’t know - so powerful that it transcends time and space. It produced the grace that saved Moses. And Adam. And Abraham. And Mary. Yes, Jesus’ grace saves people who walked the earth before Christ became man and died on the cross. If you’re saved, it’s because of Christ’s grace. The same grace that saved Moses - even though you’re seperated by 3,000 years. Didn’t you know that? God’s grace saves men in the past and the future. This is so for two reasons: 1) Christ’s sacrifice is so perfect and great, and 2) God sees all as present and He has no past or future.
“Without any scriptural proof or justification you then throw out a statement saying that the sacrifice occurred before it occurred to make Mary sinless.”
Another lie from you. I never once, NEVER ONCE, claimed that Christ’s sacrifice “occurred before it occurred to make Mary sinless.” I said this:
Post #256: Christ’s death was so momentous a sacrifice that it effects souls before it and after it in time.
Yet, now you are claiming I said something I never, EVER, said. Again, I don’t mind you disagreeing with orthodoxy, but why lie about what I said?
“Kind of like a weird back to the future episode. It’s like me saying that the action of me going to the store and buying eggs today made it possible for eggs to show up in my refrigerator 30 years ago. It’s nonsense.”
So Moses is damned? Abraham damned? Adam, David, Solomon - all damned? The simple fact is that Christ’s grace can be applied to anyone he chooses to do so. He is sovereign and all powerful. If you ran into Moses in heaven would you deny that he should be there simply because he died 1,000 BEFORE Christ died on the cross? Is it news to you that Christ’s grace helps those who lived BEFORE He became man?
“An opinion and a theory totally unsupported by scripture.”
No, a fact - taught by the Church whose authority to teach is attested to by scripture.
An opinion and a theory totally unsupported by scripture.
Again, so Moses is damned? Are you doubting this: “Christ’s death was so momentous a sacrifice that it effects souls before it and after it in time.” Moses was BEFORE Christ’s death. Are you saying he is damned?
“An opinion and a theory totally unsupported by scripture.”
No, it’s a fact - taught by the Church whose authority to teach is attested to by scripture.
“An opinion and a theory totally unsupported by scripture.”
No, it’s a fact - taught by the Church whose authority to teach is attested to by scripture. And thanks for tacitly admitting that you lied when you said I was supporting this: “Who here is claiming that Mary was sinless WITHOUT Christ’s sacrifice?” The quotes I posted showed I said the exact opposite. You knew that to be the case so you simply ignored that fact that you lost that point and said they were unsupported by scripture even when that meant shooting your own argument in the foot. Gee, smart.
“This is interesting spin. Totally false, but an interesting glimpse into your character.”
Wow. Let’s look at this again. Here’s what you said I supported: “Who here is claiming that Mary was sinless WITHOUT Christ’s sacrifice?” You said I was. I pointed out the following: Post #269: Mary was always sinless, but she was made sinless by the grace won on the cross by Christ. Christ was Mary’s Savior too, only He saved her FIRST. Post #256: Mary was made sinless by Christ’s grace. That only resulted from His death. Christ’s death was so momentous a sacrifice that it effects souls before it and after it in time. Post #249: Christ saved Mary from sinfulness with His grace. Post #240: We are not making Mary sinless. CHRIST’S GRACE made Mary sinless.
You said - point blank - that I said Mary was saved WITHOUT Christ’s sacrifice. I demonstrated that that was a flat out lie. Can you prove otherwise? No. I have repeatedly said AND HAVE ALWAYS BELIEVED that Mary was saved by Christ’s sacrifice.
“And here’s the crux of the matter. You present your opinion and theory as fact without any type of scriptural support whatsoever and then you take umbrage and call people names when they appeal to scripture to show that this theory is false.”
Wrong. You lied about what I believe and what I said. Remember, I asked this: “Who here is claiming that Mary was sinless WITHOUT Christ’s sacrifice? Who?”
You responded with: “You are!” That is a flat out lie.
Christ saved Mary with His grace that He won on the cross. His sacrifice works both forward and backward in time. That’s how Moses and Adam and David can go to heaven as well as you and me.
[Acts 2:29-34] Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand.
[John 3:13][Acts 13:36][1 Timothy 6:14-16]
Discuss the issues all you want, but do NOT make it personal. The word “lie” indicates the intent to deceive which is attributing motive, i.e. “making it personal.”
There's no difference between "before" and "without" in this context. If you think Mary was sinless "before" Christ sacrificed then you think Mary was sinless "without" the sacrifice of Christ. If the sacrifice didn't happen yet, then it didn't happen. If I didn't go to the store yet, then eggs still got in my refrigerator without me going to the store. Just because you believe the eggs got there magically doesn't mean I have to buy into your belief.
So Moses is damned? Abraham damned? Adam, David, Solomon - all damned?.
No and again this is where you err because you don't know the scriptures. Scriptures says that they haven't received the promise of eternal life...YET.
Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
Paul was discussing Moses and other old testament figures who had faith. He is saying that they did not receive the promise in their faith.
Likewise David has not received the promise of heaven:
Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us unto this day.
Act 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Act 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Act 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Now here's the thing. All of these people knew the Lord. But all of these people were also sinners, they were under the death penalty for sin. The sacrifice of Christ DID take away the penalty for sin, but these people ARE NOT in heaven. They're in their graves waiting for the return of Christ. That is when they will come to glory:
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Now Mary is in the same boat. She WAS a sinner. She knew and accepted the Lord. BUT her sin could not be atoned for UNTIL the sacrifice of Christ. And she's STILL in the grave waiting the return of Christ to be resurrected to glory.
The simple fact is that Christ’s grace can be applied to anyone he chooses to do so. He is sovereign and all powerful.
"Grace" can be applied, but being in God's grace is different than having your sins atoned for by the death of Christ. No sins were atoned for until Christ died on the cross. This is fundamental Christianity. And being sinless is impossible for any human being even with indwelling of Christ. Only deity's are sinless which is probably why people think you guys consider Mary a deity to be worshiped.
Wrong. You lied about what I believe and what I said.
The religion moderator would say at this point "Discuss the issues all you want but don't make it personal". I don't appreciate you repeatedly calling me a liar. I may disagree with your position and I may misunderstand your position, but characterizing my statements as "lies" is ascribing a motive to my character that just isn't there. You're being quite rude and insulting and I'm doing my best to keep the conversation at a respectful level. I would appreciate the same consideration.