Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
Hmm, I think I’ve seen plenty of that from the Catholic side of the Tiber as well.
Jim Johnson? Where was he buried?
Others will read the site given and those reading it have adequate intelligence.
“I’m taking sola scriptura at its face and finding it fatally flawed.”
“Did Jesus live by the traditions of men or “by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God?”
Jesus Himself lived a sola scriptura life—or show where He departed from scripture by keeping instead to the traditions of men.
Does that make it right?
The Holy Spirit works through any Christian who will allow Him. Of course, some have the gift of healing and that can be quite dramatic.
I received the same “admonition” from the same poster.
Never does such a comment cease to amaze me, especially so when it’s addressed to you personally, as was done to me.
Oh, dear. That’s revealing...
And the subject of “tradition,” when treated by our Saviour during His earthly ministry, does not fare so well.
You simple post was GOOD!
Do you not recognize that finding “a” Simon bar Jonah does not mean one has found “the” Simon bar Jonah?
Good grief.
The link you posted is to the work of famously Catholic-hating iconoclast J. Paul Peterson. You could not have done worse if you linked Iain Paisley.
I’ve said it a hundred times, Petronski. Not all Catholics are Christians and not all Protestants are Christians. It’s what we do with the Lord Jesus Christ. Is He your savior or not? You can go to church all your life and not be a Christian. A Christian has the indwelling Holy Spirit. I pray all of us here do.
Scripture at that time was the Old Testament. Do you not think He departed from the Old Testament?
And what did He do in His life? Did He write, or did He teach orally?
As for sola scriptura, did Christ come to establish a church that could not function for 1500 years (until the printing press)?
Please.
This is the ego thing again. I don’t care what you all think of me because of my faith. If I did, I’d jump right back over the Tiber into Protestantville. I don’t care what you think about the dispostion of my soul, only what God thinks about it.
The Catholic Church is the Body of Christ, when you deliberately slander her you slander Christ. Not me, it isn’t all about me, it is about Father, Son and Holy Spirit, it is about obeying what it says in the Bible, it is about not skipping the parts that I don’t like and just taking that part I do, it is not beginning new “churches” in my own image or opinion. It is about the authority of the Church spoken in the Bible and obeying that authority because that same authority was established by God and protected by the Holy Spirit.
I don’t care if you believe it but if you don’t I believe you leave out the fullness of the Truth. I believe you live a partial life in the Grace of God when you could have the fullness of all that has been left to us. That is your choice, I don’t care that you have made that choice, I believe in the Grace of God and the Infinite Mercy of Jesus. I will not limit God but I will take all the gifts Jesus gave us, without shame.
I will love God above all, I will worship through His, One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church regardless of what you say and regardless of what you feel. I will venerate Mary and the saints who have given us example and through the Grace of God, I will love those who persecute Christ by persecuting His Church. “Lord, forgive them for they know not what they do.”
Misunderstandings and ignorance are understandable but deliberate libel is another.
My, my, I forgot that Dr. Paisely does a very good job on this subject . . . well, for a Protestant.
Dr. Paisely is not trying to build or sustain a movement by telling people that salvation, God’s greatest blessings, or the depths of Christian joy are tied somehow to his own church, denomination or communion table. And that does make a big diffrence to many.
Making a Saint out of Peter
In reaction to the runaway success of Marcion’s Pauline Christianity, scribes in Rome concocted a sacred history to bolster their own claim to singular authority. Their chosen hero figure was Peter, ‘first of the apostles.’ Why did Rome need to make a saint out of Peter?
It seems curious, to say the least, that a Judaean fisherman, a married Jew and the designated ‘apostle of the circumcision’, should become the iconographic, patronising and protecting hero-figure at the heart of Roman Catholicism. With Jesus, Mary and the Father already in the pantheon, why did the church need another celestial hero?
The answer is: politics. The politics of power. In the first three centuries of the Christian era, Rome was not an especially important centre for the Faith. The great sees of the early Christian world were Alexandria, Ephesus and Antioch – each a centre of early proselytising and of a large Christian community. Each claimed some justifying link to an apostle. Paul had lived in Antioch, for example and John, it was said, had seen out his days in Ephesus. Mark was associated with Alexandria. Rome, in contrast, had no direct apostolic connection.
Jerusalem, the original Christian ‘centre of the world’ and anticipated venue for Christ’s descent from the clouds, had been destroyed in 70 AD. To the pious mind, the pagan ‘new town’ of Aelia, built upon its ruins, had lowly status and was subordinate to the see at Caesarea. Again, Caesarea could claim an apostolic connection: here, ‘Philip the evangelist’ had supposedly lived. In these eastern cities, the early church produced its first leaders, the Fathers who made the earliest attempts at defining doctrine and establishing the uniqueness of their faith. These were the ‘apologists’ who engaged in debate with Greek philosophers and competed with the priests of Mithra and other mystery religions. It was their stylii that wrote the earliest Christian scripture. For centuries, schools of philosophy, mystics, prophets and magicians had speculated on reality. Now that were joined by speculators in Christ, many themselves trained in rhetoric and classical philosophy.
I didn’t write this, and I forgot to copy the web site address. I’ve got to back and find it again.
I am at a diadvantage here, because there are tons of web sites blocked out of China by the Chicoms.
See, you lost me right there. Ridiculous.
...telling people that salvation, God’s greatest blessings, or the depths of Christian joy are tied somehow to his own church, denomination or communion table. And that does make a big diffrence to many.
Who does all that? When did we stop talking about the Catholic Church?
Don't you wonder why your side doesn't have an equivalent term to sado-evangelist?
It's because you practice it, and we don't.
Anti-Catholic lies? I agree.
well, for a Protestant.
Guess what: you're protesting the Catholic Church, you're a Protestant.
I forgot, you have your own personal definition of Christian.
And you’re welcome to it.
I’ll just stay over here, on the same page with the rest of the English-speaking world.
adj.
1. Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2. Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus’s teachings.
3. Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike.
4. Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents.
5. Showing a loving concern for others; humane.
n.
1. One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2. One who lives according to the teachings of Jesus.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.