Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
Did you catch the link posted above?
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/peter.htm
Apparently that link proves Peter wasn’t Pope.
When God looks at His family, He sees Christ within them; a gift from God to His children.
Therefore, we think the thoughts of God after Him.
As you can read in this link, the Calvinist order of salvation differs from the Arminian order (which is the same as the RCC's order BTW), most especially by presenting election as first on the list. God determines who will receive His gift of faith, whose eyes He will open, whose heart will be given understanding, whose mind will be renewed.
That's why it's all unmerited mercy, and not debt. That's why regeneration precedes faith.
"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth" -- Romans 9:11
So the Calvinist order would be...
1) election, 2) predestination, 3) gospel call 4) inward call 5) regeneration, 6) conversion (faith & repentance), 7) justification, 8) sanctification, and 9) glorification.
Regarding "foreknow" here's an excellent understanding by Pastor John Samson...
And here's lots more essays on the subject...
I especially like this one by A.A. Hodge...
No one needs to possess this understanding in order to be saved. But it feels very much like another gift from God to His family, reminding them that they were loved by God before they loved Him.
"To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever." -- Romans 16:27
Which were written down and added to the Scriptures Christ referenced, thereby completing the word of God to His family so that they might be "furnished unto all good works."
***Did you catch the link posted above?
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/peter.htm
Apparently that link proves Peter wasn’t Pope.***
The site’s name is jesusneverexisted and they prove that Peter was never Pope. Constantine took a small time outfit and made it big. Mark’s Gospel was cunningly altered to cut Peter in and cut Paul out. Acts has the real Paul meet up with imaginary Apostles.
Quite a site.
***Which were written down and added to the Scriptures Christ referenced, thereby completing the word of God to His family so that they might be “furnished unto all good works.”***
Complete? Such Scriptural mangling.
May I enquire if you believe in the Apostle’s Creed or the Nicene Creed? I mean everything in there, not just cherry picking.
Well, not all of them, right?
I mean, Jean Cauvin tells us that God damned some of them too.
And the rest He creates so as to damn them?
Sorry, but that's not God. That's a dark and cruel god created by Jean Cauvin in his own petty image.
Well then, tell me where it says in Scripture that we should call anyone except the elders of the Church for healing.
Or if you can't do that, explain to me why it is okay for Protestants add their own traditions, like going to people who aren't elders for healing, but not okay for others.
Catholics do not think of their traditions as the traditions of men. So your challenge doesn’t seem to address the issue. For us the issue is whether God is with the Church or not, and whether the Council at Jerusalem was right to say, “It seems good to the Holy Spirit and to us ....”
***The reformed believe that nothing precedes God’s determining creative will. What God ordained from before the foundation of the world will come to pass, according to His plan for creation.***
Again with the ‘plan’. Show me where God tells us that he has a ‘plan’.
***When God looks at His family, He sees Christ within them; a gift from God to His children.***
John 3:16.
***But it feels very much like another gift from God to His family, reminding them that they were loved by God before they loved Him.***
The Westminster Confession and John Calvin who preceded their construction are all about hate and death and destruction. Jesus taught love and mercy; he instructed us to be merciful to all, to love all, to feed the hungry and clothe the naked and comfort the prisoners.
Jesus is not pleased at the destruction of humans. He came to save all men. Not all will be saved, but he still came to save the whole world.
***And that makes it true? Saying it a hundred times? Inflation hits the Jabberwocky where once it was “If I tell you three times it is true.” Now a hundred times suffices to establish truth.***
Our friendly neighbourhood Reformed may have that in their playbook as well. Insisting that Jesus speaking in a closed room to his disciples really means speaking to the entire world via some AD 33 rebroadcasting satellite methodology is really something.
I particularly like the ‘call no man father’ play. From the crickets chirping, it seems that reminding them of the number of incidents where Paul refers to himself as Timothy’s father has caused silence. These guys think that they are hoisting Paul overhead and waving him like an anti Catholic banner; but how much do they really read him? From this incident, and so many, I suspect very little.
Cherry picked I said and every evidence supports it.
Absolutely false. Jesus said, “the Spirit testifies of Me.” There is no going outside of Scripture when God, by His Spirit, inspires the human authors of Scripture to pen His word. It is the revealed word of God, just as Jesus is the incarnate Word. Thus, proving one need (must) not go outside of scripture for direction.
Or do you believe as some that God cannot successfully communicate His word by His Spirit through human authorship? Consider:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
Why?
It is the revealed word of God, just as Jesus is the incarnate Word.
You agree with the Catholic Church.
Thus, proving one need (must) not go outside of scripture for direction.
You have proved nothing.
Or do you believe as some that God cannot successfully communicate His word by His Spirit through human authorship?
No no no, the question is: Do you believe as some that God cannot successfully communicate His word by His Spirit through His Church?
Here are some Scriptures that I hope will be of help:
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
Joh 5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
Joh 5:39 Search the Scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.
Joh 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
lol, I have “CHI-CHI” open, but I think it prob should go to FTD
***1) election, 2) predestination, 3) gospel call 4) inward call 5) regeneration, 6) conversion (faith & repentance), 7) justification, 8) sanctification, and 9) glorification. ***
Are you saying that only those who have received the Gospel can be saved? The Reformed Holy Spirit doesn’t come until the individual reads Scripture?
You have put together some fine Gospel. Here’s the problem. We were talking about the Scripture that Jesus was referring to. All of it was in the OT.
Nice try though. I have been conversing with another poster who has a rather loose grasp on the concept of time and timelines.
***Joh 5:39 Search the Scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.***
Why don’t you finish the verse and put it into context?
John 5:
37
Moreover, the Father who sent me has testified on my behalf. But you have never heard his voice nor seen his form,
38
and you do not have his word remaining in you, because you do not believe in the one whom he has sent.
39
You search 14 the scriptures, because you think you have eternal life through them; even they testify on my behalf.
40
But you do not want to come to me to have life.
41
“I do not accept human praise; 15
42
moreover, I know that you do not have the love of God in you.
43
I came in the name of my Father, but you do not accept me; yet if another comes in his own name, you will accept him.
44
How can you believe, when you accept praise from one another and do not seek the praise that comes from the only God?
This is why you guys so badly need the Magisterium.
The tell-tale heart, ka-thunk, ka-thunk
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