Posted on 07/29/2008 4:39:52 PM PDT by annalex
I guess not,Dear tiki?
I guess you must believe there is no Hell or eternal punishment for sins.
You guess wrong.
Often.
That post was not addressed to me.
Nonetheless, I know stfassisi and I know you.
You guess wrong.
Often.
What?
Our free will to sin is what sends us to hell.
God DOES NOT create anyone for hell or it would be a sacrifice to the devil.
My understanding is that no devout Muslim can be ignorant of Christ since the Koran teaches blasphemy about Him. I hope you are not suggesting that free passes are given to anyone who has not been taught correctly about Christ, and generally does good deeds? If that was true then no one should evangelize nice people, because only then could they lose. :) Under this theory it would be fine, however, to evangelize mean and rotten people since their worst case would be to remain in the same spot.
FK: ... you don't appear to think that faith is necessary.
Faith is necessary for sanctification, but Christ has always been merciful to those of little faith.
When Christ talks about those with "little faith" do you think He is including people with no true faith at all? Also, would you say sanctification is necessary for salvation, thus making faith required, or was that a distinction you were making?
We are not independent. We are totally dependent on His grace. What we have is not sovereignty, but free will.
But since all God does is make it possible for you to later be saved, then after you accept His grace isn't man's sovereignty and free will the same thing? That is what I have been meaning when using the term "man's sovereignty". At that time you are completely independent because you are in total control of your own destiny.
FK: Calvinism promotes a personal one-on-one relationship between the person and God.
First, the scripture does not teach that one-on-one part.
Do you really NOT think that Jesus died for you PERSONALLY? That would be a terrible shame if you did. The whole Bible is a personal love letter from God TO us. The personal nature of the relationships God had with His prophets in the OT as well as those of Jesus with His disciples is everywhere in scriptures. Just in general terms I don't understand how anyone can think that the actual indwelling Holy Spirit is not as personal as it gets. Is Holy Spirit an embedded computer chip in our heads? :) Here is one passage:
Gal 5:22-23 : 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
I mean, does this sound robotic to you or like an extremely close personal relationship?
Second, despite whatever rhetoric, with denial of free will comes denial of that very desire to imitate Christ by which we are saved and reach heaven.
Where is the logic in this? How can it be that with man's original flawed heart he can have this desire, but with a new heart FROM GOD that desire cannot, by necessity, exist? Besides, as the Bible says NO ONE is born with the desire to seek God:
Ps 53:2-3 : 2 God looks down from heaven on the sons of men to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God. 3 Everyone has turned away, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.
By this theology you elevate the sinful heart we are born with ABOVE the work of God! How does that work? :)
How many Protestants do you know who would read from St. Athanasius "God became man so that man can become God" and nod in happy agreement?
None who would agree with that wording. :) We seek to be conformed to the image of Christ, but not to "become God". If those are the same thing, then ALL Bible-believing Protestants would nod in happy agreement. We might just disagree about whether it is the innate goodness of man or the innate goodness of God that makes this happen.
No, God sends sinners to hell.
You seem to think that people voluntarily send themselves to hell because that is their "free will" choice.
No, it is God who sends them to hell.
Now if it is our free will that sends us to hell, then why would a loving God give men free will?
Stop pinging me to your posts.
God's justice sends to hell those who freely choose to reject Him.
You seem to think that people voluntarily send themselves to Hell because that is their "free will" choice.
They DO. They do not choose to go to hell because they want to go to hell, they choose to go to hell because they want to do the things in this life that violate His commandments.
No, it is God who sends them to hell.
No contradiction. They violate His rules, His justice sends them to hell.
Now if it is our free will that sends us to hell, then why would a loving God give men free will?
Because God is just and loving. Choose Him and be with Him forever (and not if one does not).
Well, if Forest Keeper is off your list, then you are off mine.
Stop pinging me to your posts.
You seem to think that God created them for Hell,thus God is a partner of the devil and zeus like
I did not ping you to a long succession of my posts replying to others.
I wish to have no further contact with you beyond correcting your ignorant statements about the Catholic Church.
I have no “list.”
I pity you.
BUT I DID! I said IF they depended on baptism for their salvation, they are lost.
Then you agree with the Catholic Church. Congratulations.
You said something to the effect that I had voided the baptisms of 1 billion people and I said if they depended on baptism for their salvation, they they’re lost. Simple as that. I understood what YOU said but you don’t understand the meaning of what I said, apparently.
Sure He did.
I said your claim about infant baptism would work (if it were true) to void the baptism of about a billion souls.
I NEVER mentioned salvation. YOU did.
Oh, I don’t. And how do YOU know that, mind reader? Do you know me? Do you know my heart? Do you know the people I have truly loved (and even forgiven for the pain they’ve cost me?). NO, you do not. How do you even know that Hitler DIDN’T love Eva Braun? Did you know him?
If you did, you added to it.
I don't think you understood at all.
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