Evangelicals: Change of Heart toward Catholics

The Black Cordelias ^ | July 28, 2008 | The Black Cordelias

[Clemenza]

The tension between throne and altar that existed in every European polity from Constantine until the 19th Century, the "Holy Roman Empire" (which I will admit was as much a secular polity as it was ridden with clerical influence, often fought by the Emperor himself), the power of the Church over temporal affairs (see Mazarin, Cisneros, Richlieu, etc.).

In the 20th century, the most notorious examples of clerically influenced governments were in Spain, Portugal, and Croatia. Franco, Salazar, and Pavelic basically allowed the Church to run cultural policy, and (to a lesser extent than the European polities from the 4th to 19th centuries) political affairs as well.

[Judith Anne]

May God have mercy.

[Bosco]

Let’s pick one out of the stack - the priesthood.

Are you saying that the Roman Catholic priesthood of today is the same as that “from the book of Acts on”?

[roamer_1]

I do not deny that Catholics had it rough in England, and America. Nor do the Protestants deny it. But it pales in comparison to the Catholic scourge. Not only in time, but in scale. Furthermore, the Protestants do not claim to be inerrant, nor have they ever claimed to be such. That is the point.

The RCC cannot claim to be inerrant unless they also choose to embrace their past actions as correct as done in Christ's name. To do so would be inexcusable, so I really see no defense wrt the subject whatsoever.

[Petronski]

Christ founded the Catholic Church circa 32 AD.

[Bosco]

Actually, it was the Holy Spirit who founded the church on the day of Pentecost.

Acts chapter 2 gives the account.

[Bosco]

I'm interested in your reply.

Is the Roman Catholic priesthood the same today as it was from the founding of the church "from Acts onward"?

[Judith Anne]

Furthermore, the Protestants do not claim to be inerrant, nor have they ever claimed to be such. That is the point.

You haven't been on the Religion threads for very long, have you? /rhetorical question

It's possible to see one protestant say about another protestant confession, "Them fellers was wrong." But you will never hear them say it about their own confession. That's what's so funny: all the other protestants didn't get it quite right, they made mistakes, but if we concentrate on the Catholics, we won't have to take responsibility for all the (other guys') protestant errors.

It's almost like the demand for reparations. No living American owned slaves. Likely, their grandparents didn't either. No living black American was a slave, and likely their grandparents weren't either. But white America OWES reparations, because of what was done in the past.

In the same way, each individual Catholic is held responsible, by protestants, for every Catholic, pope, priest, and writer throughout the last 2000 years. I mean, seriously, posters have asked "What about what you did to Gallileo?" Honestly. Sometimes I wonder.

[Celtman]

Well said!

[roamer_1]

Christ founded the Catholic Church circa 32 AD.

Yeah, riiight...

[roamer_1]

Much of what is considered "Catholic scourge" is outright falsehood.

Revisionism at it's finest. I have already begun this discussion with wagglebee, and have begun to order the research necessary to refute it properly. I will publish within a few months time (as time allows). I will be certain to raise an article here to discuss the Crusades and Inquisitions in Europe and Northern Africa more fully at that time.

My experience regarding this issue is certainly from anti-Catholic sources, but not Protestant ones. I had made a study of ancient European trade routes some years ago, and in the course of that study, relied upon the work of bards and troubadours, as well as more conventional first person historical sources.

I am so offended by the revisionism I find going on regarding this subject that I have made it a personal priority to correct it.

stay tuned.

[wagglebee]

I'm a Lutheran (LCMS) and I don't believe the Marian beliefs, nor does *any* Lutheran. Nothing the Catholic church teaches about Mary is believed by Lutherans apart from the fact that she was the mother of our Lord and that she conceived Jesus by the power of the Holy Spirit. We recite the Apostle's Creed.

Also, no Lutherans practice private confession. We practice a general confession. But private confession to a pastor, inside a little booth, that we do not do. I believe the church, in the Lutheran Confessions, still supports the notion of private confession, but it is not considered a sacrament nor is it at all practiced by any Lutheran body that I've ever heard about. Sacraments in the Lutheran Church are believed to be only those that contain some outward sign - Baptism (the water) and the Lord's Supper (bread & wine).

This just goes to show how very far the LCMS is removed from Lutheranism.

[wagglebee]

Any insight?

[roamer_1]

It's possible to see one protestant say about another protestant confession, "Them fellers was wrong." But you will never hear them say it about their own confession.

Hmmm. You must not have heard me going round about with the venerable Dr. Eckleburg and Lord Calvinus (among others) the other day about infant baptism then, huh? I am Dutch Reformed (technically) attending a Presbyterian (PCA, [Yes Dr.E, it is PCA]) Church, who has significant differences with Reformed theology on infant baptism, and with aspects of predestination. I had no problem speaking my mind at all. And as one might expect, they did not seem timid in their replies, either.

In the same way, each individual Catholic is held responsible, by protestants, for every Catholic, pope, priest, and writer throughout the last 2000 1600 years.

Again, that is *not* the point. The reason I brought it up was as an example of errancy. NOTE: The Catholic Church is no less inerrant than any other church. WE (churches, confessions) ALL HAVE, AND WILL, MAKE MISTAKES. Sometimes they are big ones. The difference is that the rest of us admit to them. We confess...

[lightman]

Boagenes;

I respectfully suggest that you need to reread the Lutheran Confessions, especially the, Augsburg Confession,:

Article XI: Of Confession.

1] Of Confession they teach that Private Absolution ought to be retained in the churches, although in confession 2] an enumeration of all sins is not necessary. For it is impossible according to the Psalm: Who can understand his errors? Ps. 19, 12.

Regarding actual practice, it is much more common that you may suppose. The 250+ member/subscribers to the Rule of the Society of the Holy Trinity (comprised of LCMS, ELCA, and ELCIC clergy) have bound themselves to this chapter:

Chapter V
Confession and Absolution

Individual or personal confession of sins is to be kept and used by us for the sake of the absolution, which is the word of forgiveness spoken by a fellow pastor as from God himself. Therefore, members will:

1. Learn and adopt the understanding and practice of Confession and Absolution as described in the Augsburg Confession (Article XI, XII, XXV), and the Small Catechism.

2. Seek out a trustworthy pastor who will be willing to serve as a confessor and who will be able to be available for one's individual confession regularly and frequently.

3. Prepare to make individual confession by examining one's personal life and relationship with God and others in the light of the Ten Commandments. Also helpful are the penitential Psalms (6, 32, 38, 51, 102, 130, 143) and the Prayer of Manasseh in the Apocrypha.

4. In preparation for hearing the confession of others, make regular and frequent use of Confession and Absolution, keep confidences, so as to be worthy of the trust of others, read and reflect on the Holy Scriptures so as to provide a reservoir of passages with which to comfort consciences and strengthen the faith of penitents (see FC, SD XI.28-32).

5. Both as penitent and confessor, refrain from extraneous conversation so that attention is centered on the penitent's confession of sins, the Absolution or forgiveness of sins, and the confessor's use of Scripture passages which comfort the conscience and encourage faith in the Word of God which absolves; refrain from challenging or evaluating the confession; use the order of Confession and Absolution of the Small Catechism or that of the service books of the Church.

6. As absolved penitents, expect to be held accountable by the confessor for reconciliation with those whom we have offended and restoration of what we have taken or broken.

7. Confession and Absolution is a sacramental rite of the Church (AP XII.4) and therefore is normally conducted in church buildings where provision can be made for privacy and confidentiality.

Since Confession and Absolution has fallen into disuse among many of us, its restoration demands utmost care and concern for both penitent and confessor. Introduction to and initial use of Confession and Absolution may call for simply following the order of Confession and Absolution lest the penitent worry about a full enumeration of sins or the confessor about comforting and encouraging with passages of Scripture.

Time for private Confession is a part of every Chapter and General Retreat.