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Primacy of Jesus Christ, Alpha and Omega (sin or no sin)
Christianity Today ^ | January, 2008 | Philip Yancey

Posted on 08/06/2008 8:58:59 AM PDT by koinonia

More than two centuries before the Reformation, a theological debate broke out that pitted theologian Thomas Aquinas against an upstart from Britain, John Duns Scotus. In essence, the debate circled around the question, "Would Christmas have occurred if humanity had not sinned?"

Whereas Aquinas viewed the Incarnation as God's remedy for a fallen planet, his contemporary saw much more at stake. For Duns Scotus, the Word becoming flesh as described in the prologue to John's Gospel must surely represent the Creator's primary design, not some kind of afterthought or Plan B. Aquinas pointed to passages emphasizing the Cross as God's redemptive response to a broken relationship. Duns Scotus cited passages from Ephesians and Colossians on the cosmic Christ, in whom all things have their origin, hold together, and move toward consummation.

Did Jesus visit this planet as an accommodation to human failure or as the center point of all creation? Duns Scotus and his school suggested that Incarnation was the underlying motive for Creation, not merely a correction to it. Perhaps God spun off this vast universe for the singular purpose of sharing life and love, intending all along to join its very substance. "Eternity is in love with the inventions of time," wrote the poet William Blake...

(Excerpt) Read more at christianitytoday.com ...


TOPICS: Catholic; Evangelical Christian; Orthodox Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: christ; dunsscotus; incarnation; primacy
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To: kosta50

“faith without works is dead.” (James 2:20). I don’t believe that Sola fide is biblical. As men of faith, we have to strive to enter by the narrow gate for, as Jesus said, not all who say Lord, Lord shall enter (cf. Luke 13:23-28).


161 posted on 08/16/2008 2:40:54 AM PDT by koinonia ("Thou art bought with the blood of God... Be the companion of Christ." -St. Ephraim)
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To: kosta50
Kosta50, thank you for taking so much time to dialogue with me. I need to press on to other endeavors at this point. So I pray that the Lord bless and keep you and your family. I ask pardon of God and of you for the times I have lacked charity in our dialogue. And I ask you to please pray for me that I may be a better disciple of Christ!

In his NAME...

162 posted on 08/16/2008 2:45:51 AM PDT by koinonia ("Thou art bought with the blood of God... Be the companion of Christ." -St. Ephraim)
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To: koinonia
“faith without works is dead.” (James 2:20). I don’t believe that Sola fide is biblical. As men of faith, we have to strive to enter by the narrow gate for, as Jesus said, not all who say Lord, Lord shall enter (cf. Luke 13:23-28)

That's whay the Church taught and still teaches 2,000 years later. We can't simply "accept" Jesus and get a limo ride to heaven.

163 posted on 08/16/2008 9:57:57 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: koinonia
Kosta50, thank you for taking so much time to dialogue with me. I need to press on to other endeavors at this point. So I pray that the Lord bless and keep you and your family. I ask pardon of God and of you for the times I have lacked charity in our dialogue. And I ask you to please pray for me that I may be a better disciple of Christ! In his NAME...

Thank you for sharing your beliefs. I am sorry if I sound harsh sometimes. If we are all sinners we cannot judge others. It would be like a child molester calling a rapist "criminal."

We all go through the stage of religious pride, especially when some things are revealed to us. It is energizing and even exhilarating. It's also a gift and some people use their blessings for the evil while others for the good in God's name. Hopefully we will all learn to do the latter.

All the best to you.

164 posted on 08/16/2008 10:06:21 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: koinonia

Yancy is a post-modern Evangelical which is essentially a subjectivist theology that denies one can make propositional statements (i.e. Negative theology).

When that happens atonement theories become irrelevant and subjective naval gazing become the norm for ethics.

Yancy is a Greek Christian dressed in Protestant clothing.


165 posted on 08/16/2008 10:51:36 AM PDT by the_conscience (Can you hear the chorus of howls?)
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To: the_conscience
the_conscience (conscience--precisely what our country needs! Wake up America...)

Thanks for the info on Yancey. In the original article he quotes a subjectivist Catholic theologian too, Fr. Karl Rahner--from what I understand, he is pretty much the "father of modernism and subjectivism" in Catholic circles today.

Nonetheless, without diminishing the importance of our redemption in Christ, some of Yancey's points taken from John Duns Scotus are worth reflecting upon. A Christ centered universe before the foundations of the world, even if Adam had not sinned, is not only not contrary to the Bible, but can even be said to be very biblical (Ephesians 1:3-12; Colossians 1:15-20; etc.).

At any rate, this sinner needs Christ as Redeemer and reflecting upon God's loving and merciful plan for me and all the world in Christ has never been a waste of time. God bless you.

166 posted on 08/18/2008 2:42:38 AM PDT by koinonia ("Thou art bought with the blood of God... Be the companion of Christ." -St. Ephraim)
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To: koinonia

I’ve run into that same arguement from one FR O’Keefe in an article I read somewhere. Don’t know much about Scotus. If the main assertion is, as I read it, that the Incarnation is an actual ontological fact throughout history then I believe we would face some real difficult theological challenges. Perhaps a different categorical claim could be made.

Thanks for writing. Grace to you.


167 posted on 08/18/2008 6:29:26 AM PDT by the_conscience (Can you hear the chorus of howls?)
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To: the_conscience
I found an article by Fr. O'Keefe. He claims that Jesus wasn't God, but the "creative energy of God" and that we shouldn't pray to Jesus. Yikes1

So any position he holds is going to be far from the likes of Blessed John Duns Scotus, St. Francis de Sales, or St. Lawrence of Brindisi who at least believed that Jesus was God and that he redeemed us from our sins.

168 posted on 08/18/2008 8:57:50 AM PDT by koinonia ("Thou art bought with the blood of God... Be the companion of Christ." -St. Ephraim)
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To: koinonia

I didn’t see that in the article I read but that is scary!


169 posted on 08/18/2008 9:22:24 AM PDT by the_conscience (Can you hear the chorus of howls?)
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To: the_conscience

Perhaps it’s another “Fr. O’Keefe”? But here’s the link to the article I found (definitely not promoting this one): http://www.catholica.com.au/forum/forum_entry.php?id=15341
Maybe we should post this one on FR and see the reaction ;-) Praise God there are still believers out there in spite of the nonsense!


170 posted on 08/18/2008 10:52:35 AM PDT by koinonia ("Thou art bought with the blood of God... Be the companion of Christ." -St. Ephraim)
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To: koinonia

The Medeival discussion continues:

http://absoluteprimacyofchrist.org/

Praised be Jesus Christ!


171 posted on 08/04/2012 11:13:32 AM PDT by koinonia
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