Posted on 12/27/2008 2:48:02 PM PST by NYer
The pastor does not enforce the rule in a So. Baptist Church. It’s up to everyone in attendence to decide for himself whether he should take communion. The pastor just explains why we do it, what it means, etc., and we are then when we take communion, it is between us and God. If you take it and you are not saved, then you are just lying to yourself. God knows.
I was a cradle Episcopalian and was never taught that there was a “Real Presence” in Communion. Only a Spiritual Presence.
Heart!
You wrote: “I think a number of Protestants manage to make a “spiritual communion” or something very like it, without knowing it.”
My point was reflected back to you. One should not assume as you that everyone is having less of a walk with God then they are. Even if not from the same church. Notice I didn’t say faith, for it should be one faith, one God, one Lord.
While most of what I may beleive about God is different than others doesn’t make me less or better.
We are all walking on the same path headng in the same direction.
For who can resist the will of the Lord?
Most Reformed Christians also believe in the real presence that is not carnal. Christ is truly albeit spiritually present in the sacrament.
Although, on one hand, Calvin denies the descent of Christ's body to us (absentia localis), he paradoxically speaks of such a descent by the Holy Spirit as the source of real presence (praesentia realis) in the Supper. Calvin would only allow the word "real" (reali) to be used if it meant that which was not fallacious and imaginary or the opposite of that which was deceptive and illusory. On the whole he preferred the word "true" (vero) to describe Christ's presence. In normal speech "real" connotes something that is existent, objective, and in the external order. When used with reference to the Supper, "real presence" implies "local presence," and, of course, this is denied by Calvin. So then, Calvin would allow the phrase praesentia realis only if "real" was used for "true" as is sometimes the case in common or vulgar parlance. As for the mode of "descent" (modum descensus) Calvin maintains that it is the Holy Spirit who descends but not alone. Christ "descends" by His Spirit. But again Calvin employs paradoxical language when he maintains that the manner of descent is that "by which he lifts us up to himself. There is, so to speak, a simultaneous descent and ascent. What is in view, here, is sacramental "proximity" effected by the Spirit upon the ground of the mystical union of Christ and His people.Calvin maintains that the sacrament's effect is more than a mere stimulation of the intellect, imagination, and emotions at the sight of the portrayal of the spectacle of the Cross. It is this and more. "In participation in the Supper faith connects itself with something outside of itself and other than a mere idea, and, in so doing, effects in the spiritual realm a real communication between itself and the earthly reality such as that figured in the act of eating the bread." Calvin distinguishes between eating and believing. Faith or belief receives Christ and the promises, but eating implies more. Eating is the result or consequence of faith. The spiritual transaction which occurs possesses the nature of nourishment or vivication. "...the flesh of Christ is eaten by believing because it is made ours by faith..." Hence, the eating (nourishment) follows from believing (appropriation). Or, in other words, faith is a vessel that receives something from outside -- the benefits of Christ's flesh and blood which nourish the believer and impart to him eternal life. (Calvin's Doctrine of the Spiritual Presence of Christ in the Lord's Supper)
The Mass is one very large prayer to us Catholics. This "prayer" includes readings from both the old and new Testaments (changing every day), prayers from the Bible, and numerous "man made" prayers.
It is our preferred method of group worship, at least one day per week. Our Bibles are left at home, but we are encouraged and instructed to open them, read, pray, and study them as often as we can.
We, too, must deal with those who consider that one must be instructed as to the seriousness of the event that it is a rejection when asked not to commune.
It is not a rejection. It shows compassion to the communicant who may be doing it in an unworthy manner.
If everyone would commune in their own churches, this question would be moot.
“But what do you mean by “spiritual communion”, please.”
To me spiritual communion doesn’t involve material things, nothing. It’s a place God has shown me within, a place of peace, worship, depth, wonder. To know all things, see all things, believe all things.
Small potatoes for communion? Now that's thinking outside the box! :-)
I was a "Protestant" for 20 years -- granted, a "non-denominational" one, but, I assure, communion in that groupd meant nothing - it was symbolic. I sat there and puzzled over it for years. I realized it was a game. It was then I knew I needed to find out what "Communion" really is. Holy Communion.
Granted, "meaningless" is a broad term. Well, it can be. I actually mean it literally.
A "spiritual" communion -- whatever that is -- is a product of one's imagination. There is nothing objective about it. What does the term even mean?
Holy Communion is down to earth. And it is, because it's real.
It's the coolest, freakiest thing there is. I highly recommend it.
I'm not a Baptist (I'm a Free Methodist who's wife converted from Catholicism and who's mother in law is the Christian Education director and RCIA leader at the local Catholic parish - we still get along very well), but I can answer. Your status with God is for you. It is by faith you are saved; it is not by works. Actions are an outward expression of your faith, but are not the reason you are saved.
For many, communion is a time to reflect on their own walk with God, and where they have failed, and to renew their commitment to walk in Grace and Communion with God.
All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God - including Catholics who backslide. No one but God can forgive, and no one but God can save. And no one but a man, looking deep into his own heart, can understand the truly know his own relationship with the Lord.
I think all are saved, even you. It matters not to me what you believe, God will welcome you.Read that. Ponder it. It seems to deny much of what Our Lord said.
While there are no complete Bibles, there are the missalettes with the readings, usually, one from the OT, one from the NT, and the Gospel. We have readings for every day of the year.
Thank you for your reply.
I guess my actual question was who could judge themselves worthy, or saved, as we do not know when we will backslide in the future.
Since being saved entails forever, if you are a good practicing christian for many years, as my brother in laws parents were, (baptist, not southern), were devoted, attended church every week, excellent prayer life, were very involved in the church. The dad got sick, very sick, mulitple transplants, and through it, they lost their faith in God.
No one could have seen that coming; were they ever saved? Not? I can tell you, they were as sincere as you and I in their faith, yet a catastrophic illness over several years, their faith was shaken and lost.
We cannot say it would not happen to us, we have not been tested watching our spouse die over 15-20 years, a most dibilitating and slow death.
I cannot believe for a moment they were never saved, so how does that work? BTW, I converted to the Catholic Church from the Baptist Church- once saved always saved was one of the reasons.
I could never reconcile it personally, especially when scripture pointed out we must work out our salvation in fear and trembling.
I, by no means am attacking, and it is the senario above that caused me to have those questions, to which my Baptist pastor replied, and I quote, “ Some Baptist churches believe you can lose your salvation, some do not. Go to one that teaches what you believe if you are not comfortable here.”
My answer, to which he never replied, was “There is one God, One Truth and One Spirit. If you are teaching one truth about salvation, and the other Baptist Church is teaching the opposite, that is 2 truths, or no truths. Who is right and how can you know your truth is correct?” That was the last time we spoke.
Sorry I did not mean to make this so long, and I appreciate your time. I do always like to hear how our Baptist FRiends feel about the above story, and the can/cannot lose your salvation issue.
Catholocism reeks with rote symbolism.
Yeah, that whole Reformation thing is so over-rated. /sarc
Stuff like this gives organized religion, especially the Catholic Church a bad name among otherwise friendly fellow Christians.
Get over it. Only the Jews are entitled to consider themselves better than the rest of us. ;)
RE-The Mass is one very large prayer to us Catholics. This “prayer” includes readings from both the old and new Testaments (changing every day), prayers from the Bible, and numerous “man made” prayers.
It is our preferred method of group worship, at least one day per week. Our Bibles are left at home, but we are encouraged and instructed to open them, read, pray, and study them as often as we can.
But that still does not explain why the Catholic church does not have Bibles in the pews for people to follow along?
Oh poor pitiful me!
I feel so horribly snubbed and excluded by those ultra pious Catholics, maybe I’ll convert!
(Am I a genius or what!)
Well, naturally, they couldn’t stop Bill Clinton, who was allowed to take communion in a Catholic church, and took it big as sin. No one had the gall to stop him from taking communion unworthily. Why not?
Actually, the communion is what it IS, in spite of whatever whoever believes it to be. Because a Catholic considers our Christian “Protestant” communion to be “unworthy” or “incorrect” does not make it law over us. You know, freedom and all that?
Scripturally, the unworthiness comes from UNFORGIVENESS toward your brother and taking communion (which we also do in Christian churches which means as much to us as it does to say, oh . . any of the Kennedys or any Catholic) while in a state of unforgiveness toward our brother. We don’t cotton to the Pope’s supposed “infallibility”. That’s our belief - which got some of our anscestors persecuted and killed by Catholic priests and hierarchy in olden days.
Well, you finally admit it...You must eat the wafer and drink the wine to get eternal life...And Jesus says so, right???
Joh 6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
So no one who has ever died, or those who will die and have not eaten the wafer gets eternal life, but gets eternal damnation...
Just want to be clear here what you are teaching...
And what else did Jesus say???
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Quite a little contrast here...In chapter 5 Jesus says nothing about eating any flesh or drinking blood...But yet people are ALREADY passed from death onto life...Without eating bread, or meat, or blood or wine...It all has to do with belief...
Joh 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
Now here's an odd one, if you're a Catholic...
You guys call this eating of the wafer a 'feast'...A meal...You guys even say you 'knaw' on the flesh of Jesus...
And you know what, I've never been hungry for the flesh of Jesus nor been thirsty for his blood...Just like Jesus said...
Joh 6:27 Labor not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
You as a Catholic are not supposed to eat anything for an hour before you eat the wafer...Apparently this is to make sure what you have eaten has cleared at least some of your intestines...The stuff perishes after an hour...
And how long does the wafer (Jesus?) stay in your body??? Science says about 20 minutes...Then Jesus is gone, til the next time...
Mar 7:18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;
Mar 7:19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?
There you have it...When you eat the wafer, it goes in one end and out the other...It doesn't travel thru the heart, or the soul, or the spirit...
Labor NOT for the meat that perishes, but the 'meat' that ENDURES, onto eternal life...
There is no eternal life in eating a baked wafer...Jesus isn't the literal bread...God gave the Israelites literal bread, manna...Jesus is the Spiritual bread...
Eternal life comes from believing with all your being that you need a Saviour and Jesus Christ is that Saviour...
Of course it won't hurt you to eat the wafer, but don't put your trust for eternal security into eating it...Put your trust in the Risen Lord, Jesus Christ...
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.