Posted on 01/12/2009 1:44:39 PM PST by TaraP
Are the Man of Sin and the Son of Perdition 2 totally different people?
MEANING OF PERDITION:Entire loss; utter destruction; ruin; esp., the utter loss of the soul, or of final happiness in a future state; future misery or eternal death.
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
If the Man of SIN was Nero-666 then we have the Son of Perdition to be revealed....I know many have said is Obama that person, but really could he be?
Paul wrote similar words to the Thessalonians, ‘The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders’ (2 Thes 2:9).
John in the book of Revelation records his vision of a beast coming out of the earth. In similar words he says, ‘And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men.
Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived those who dwell on the earth’ (Rev 13: 13,14).
"For The Son Of Man Will Come Like The Lightning, Which Flashes Across The Whole Sky From The East To The West." For Discussion:
These words describe the SAME event; not two seperate events.
Why do you believe Christians will not be here for the reign of the AntiChrist? The bible is explicit in that it says he will be given the power to wage war with the saints and to conquer them. There’s nothing in scripture about being raptured away, but rather promises of safety IN Christ during this terrible time.
NO and NO. Who was the first sinner? Saul Alinsky's book was dedicated to him. And it is not a person in the flesh sense. Who tempted Christ and what did he offer Christ.... Isaiah 14: 12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!.....
And Ezekiel 28:12 "Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, 'Thus saith the Lord GOD;
Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty....
(Not quite the image of horns, a pitch fork, and dragging a tail in red undies.)
13 Thou has been in Eden the garden of God: every precious stone was they covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, ....
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou was upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou was created,
till iniquity was found in the.
...... The only named entity in the whole WORD that has been sentenced to 'death'
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick;
therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee,
and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
“looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing”, our blessed hope IS his glorious appearing and this is simply talking about the same event.
This is the same as saying “the God and Father” found in several verses. Here is an article that shows other examples plus several other rules regarding translation/interpretation:
http://www.pfrs.org/sharp.html
Note the date of the original article for how long these rules have been around. This isn’t something new to spring on anyone :)
“and I know from experience that I won’t change your mind if you are not a pre-trib person”
Isn’t the reverse also true? I can show you passage after passage clearly supporting a post-trib rapture which is not even in dispute but there isn’t one clear verse/passage supporting a pre-trib. To see a pre-trib the reader must read it into the text as shown here and 1 Thessalonians 4.
Many very devout Christians tell me after I bring up a discussion of the end times (just for discussion purposes only), that they don’t really care because they wont be here (pre-trib rapture). We are told throughout scripture to watch, be ready, that we will know the signs yet the pre-trib doctrine opposes that because if we’re going to be gone when all the ‘bad stuff’ starts happening what’s the point in watching?
JB
Let me try a different verse. When Jesus said that the saints will escape the "things that shall come to pass" (Luke 21:36), what was He talking about? I read a list of things we shall escape in Matt. 24, Luke 21 and Rev. 6-19: war, famine, death, religious persecution, earthquakes, signs and wonders in heaven, hail fire and blood, seas and rivers turned to blood, falling stars, sun moon and stars darkened, demons loosed upon earth, scorching sun, darkness, demons working miracles, satanic deception... To me all of them can be summed up in one word: Tribulation. And Jesus promised us that we will escape it!.
1 Thess. 5:9 says that "God has not appointed us to wrath", i.e. we will escape the wrath of God. And 2 Thess. 2:7-8 says that "only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken our of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed..." What hinders the powers of darkness from having full sway today? Certainly it is not governments, we know that from experience, and we know that they will aid and abet the Antichrist. Some people think it is the Holy Spirit, but Rev. 7:9-17 establishes that multitudes of people will be saved during the Tribulation, yet John 3:5-8, Romans 8:9 and Ephesians 2:18 attest that no man is saved except through the ministry of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:17-21 (or Joel 2:28-32)states that the Holy Spirit will be present on earth during the Tribulation. Therefore, the only choice left is the Church.
Further, please notice that after Rev. 4:1 there's no mention of the Church here on earth (there's one mention of the Church in heaven). Remember that the Tribulation is also known as the time of Jacob's Trouble (Jer. 30:7). The wrath of God will be for Israel, to bring Israel no a place of national repentance, and for a God-forsaken world. But those who are God's children, those bought and adopted through the blood shed at Calvary... I cannot see God pouring His wrath over them!
To PleaseNoMore, when you read that the Antichrist will fight the saints, please remember that in the New Testament all born-again believers are called saints. If you are Catholic this may upset you, but you are a saint, and so is topcat54, thatjoeguy... hey, even me!
The pre-tribulational rapture goes hand in hand with the dispensational notion of the Church and Israel. Darby had to invent the pre-trib rapture to fit with his radical views on Israel. According to his theory, the Church needs to be raptured out of the way so God can once again begin dealing (pouring out His wrath) directly with national Israel. Since the Church does not share in anything belonging to Israel, including wrath, they must be removed. This is all their theory.
And so they needed to search the Scripture to find something that would fit these views. Their eyes landed on 1 Thess. 4:16,17 as justification, even thought it plainly says nothing about a pre-trib rapture. The system comes first.
This is simply not so! Rev. Morgan Edwards included a discussion of the pre-Trib rapture in his book "Milenium, Last Day Novelties" written in 1788 (some 40 years before Darby). He claimed that he had written the same thing in 1742, but I have not been able to corroborate this statement. Joseph Mede (1586-1638)also was a pre-trib scholar. Grant Jeffrey, a current prophecy scholar, discovered an apocalyptic sermon written sometime between 565 and 627, attributed to the Syrian church father Ephrem of Nisibis, describing a pre-trib rapture. Even earlier, Victorinus, Bishop of Petau, wrote in 270:"these shall be in the last time, when the church shall have gone out of the midst" referring to the judgments during the tribulation. You can argue Bible verses, but don't tell me that a pre-trib rapture is Darby's invention because it had been taught for centuries!
That’s what the text is all about. Paul is telling the Thessalonians what Jesus told the disciples, "These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world." (John 16:33) The hope of the gospel and Christ’s return is that we will be overcomers. "To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne." (Rev. 3:21)
But, you are left with the fact that the Greek language does not allow you to construct Titus 2:13 as you have proposed. The blessed hope and appearing is the Second Coming of Our Lord. There is no pre-trib rapture. Only those who have been victimized by bad teaching propose such a theory.
To me all of them can be summed up in one word: Tribulation. And Jesus promised us that we will escape it!.
Yes, but their escape is not by supernatural rapture, but by “fleeing to the mountains.” (which is what the saints did in AD70, Matt. 24:16) There is nothing wrong with trying to avoid trouble by human means. But there is nothing to say we will be supernaturally snatched up from the tribulations of this world.
1 Thess. 5:9 says that "God has not appointed us to wrath", i.e. we will escape the wrath of God.
Again, nothing here that requires supernatural intervention by God ala the pre-trib rapture of dispensationalism.
Further, please notice that after Rev. 4:1 there's no mention of the Church here on earth (there's one mention of the Church in heaven).
That’s a red herring. It’s a discredited notion of the futurists that results from their system being imposed on the text. Did you know that there is no reference to God in the book of Esther? Did you know there is no direct reference to the Church in Peter’s epistles?
The bottom line is that you have to accept the system of dispensationalism (radical Church/Israel distinction) in order to get future tribulation and a secret pre-trib rapture. If you don’t accept the system, all the other difficulties fall away and the text suddenly makes perfect sense without the need to be sliced and diced into a thousand unconnected/disjoint pieces.
I’m well aware of the theories of Tommy Ice and the Pre-Trib Research Center. Tommy has been searching in vain for a pre-tribulational rapturist prior to 1830 for at least a decade.
Can you provide an actual quote from Morgan Edwards describing the pre-trib rapture of Darby?
Have you actually studied these alleged rapturist quotes that "scholars" like Grant Jeffrey and Tommy Iace have dredged up? I have. They are all bogus. I challenge you to do the research yourself and see if these folks are saying what rapturists claim they are saying.
I'll say it again. Pre-trib rapture is a Darby invention.
I wouldn’t buy too much into his teachings. For a ‘Lecturer in church history’ he needs to do some more reading. His description of the siege of Jerusalem is off by several years, like 3 of them. The siege and conquest of Jerusalem only took 7 months not 3.5 as he claims.
Josephus War of the Jews, books 5 & 6.
JB
“I’ll say it again. Pre-trib rapture is a Darby invention.”
Actually I think it was an Eddy Irving invention (of the Irvingits) that Darby jumped on.
JB
Nero and Nero alone fits the bill as the specific or personal expression of the Beast. This vile character fulfills all the requirements of the principles derived from the very text of Revelation itself. Those principles are particularly abundant in Revelation 13. Notice:First, in Revelation 13:18 the number of the Beast is the number of "a man" and that number is "666." Now the usefulness of this number lies in the fact that in ancient days alphabets served a two-fold purpose. Letters functioned, of course, as phonetic symbols. As such, they functioned just as our modern alphabet. But in ancient times letters also served as numerals, in that the Arabic numbering system was a later development of history.
A Hebrew spelling of Nero Caesar's name was Nrwn Qsr n, e,r, o, n; q, s, r. It has been documented by archaeological finds that a first century Hebrew spelling of Nero's name provides us with precisely the value of 666. Is it not remarkable that this most relevant emperor has a name that fits precisely the required sum? Is this sheer historical accident? But there is more.
Second, the textual variant. If you consult a Bible with marginal references you may notice something of interest regarding Revelation 13:18. Your reference may say something to the effect: "Some manuscripts read 616." The fact is that the number 666 in some ancient manuscripts of Scripture is actually changed to 616. But why? Was it changed accidentally, or on purpose?
The difference surely is no accident of sight made by an early copiest. The numbers 666 and 616 are not even similar in appearance in the original Greek--whether spelled out in words or written out as numerals. As textual scholars agree, it must be intentional.
A strong and most reasonable case may be made for the following probability. John, a Jew, used a Hebrew spelling of Nero's name in order to arrive at the figure 666. But when Revelation began circulating among those less acquainted with Hebrew, a well-meaning copiest who knew the meaning of 666 might have intended to make its deciphering easier by altering it to 616. It surely is no mere coincidence that 616 is the numerical value of "Nero Caesar," when spelled in Hebrew by transliterating it from its more widely familiar Latin spelling.
One question asked of me by a dispensationalist after the Revelation presentation was: "If John is writing to gentile churches in Asia Minor, how could he expect them to understand that the name hidden in the cipher "666" had to be spelled in Hebrew in order to give the correct evaluation?" This was asked in light of my arguing that 666 referred to Nero Caesar, as spelled in Hebrew characters.My response was: (1) This "problem" of Hebrew demands in a gentile letter is not unique to deciphering 666. The entire Revelation is written in such a Hebrew cast that R. H. Charles and David E. Aune had to produce special Greek grammars for Revelation. This is necessary because Revelation is written in a very Hebraic-impacted Greek. (2) Other words and images appearing in Revelation are strongly Judaic and, therefore, not within the thinking pattern of gentile Christians. Nevertheless, John sent them in his Revelation. (4) The theme and thrust of Revelation is a "clue" to such a need. That is, the theme (1:7) and point (God's divorce of Israel) point directly to a Judaic setting.
Actually, it took only four months, but who’s quibbling.
Dr. Lee probably had the entire war in view, which began in AD66, and lasted over three years. How close do the armies have to be to the city before one considers the siege to have begun?
I would not discount what he says based on that small misstatement.
Have you heard about the post-trib minister who advertised an offer of $500 to anyone who could prove a pre-trib rapture was seen before Darby began to popularize in the 1840s? He had to pay the challenge when someone showed him the writtings of Rev. Morgan Edwards (1742). Anyhow, here is the quotation: "I say, somewhat more; because the dead saints will be raised, and the living changed at Christ's " appearing in the air" (1 Thes. iv, 17)[...] will he and they abide in the air all that time? No: they will ascend to paradise, or to some one of those many " mansions in the father's house of God" (John xiv: 2), and to disappear during the foresaid period of time".
Excuse me, but I want to make sure I understand what you are saying. Are you suggesting that God is finished with Israel?
Well, folks, this Sunday is my favorite Sunday in the Sunday school calendar: Sanctity of Human Life. That, together with the persecuted church and bible prophecy are very very dear to me. So, I am to log off until I have a solid good lesson ready. It should take a couple of days. If this thread is still alive, I shall be back!
Very good. Now, do you know the context and reason for those remarks that Edwards originally made as a seminary student?
All this being said we must remember that John wrote Revelations nearly 30 years AFTER the destruction of Jerusalem. I don’t see any point to comparing or claiming Nero was the anti-christ.
Also the oldest manuscripts all used just three letters in giving the number. This does two things, not only are we told the amount (666) but also how to add up the name. And as early as 150AD, less then 60 years after Revelations was written (that’s like us checking out a book written in the 50s) we have confirmation of the correct number. Any reference to the number 616 was simple a mistake in the manuscripts.
And lastly John wrote Revelations in Greek, there is no need to convert the names to Hebrew.
JB
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