Who is that Man of Sin to be revealed, the Son of Perdition...

Self | Jan 12th, 2009 | TARAP

[TaraP]

Are the Man of Sin and the Son of Perdition 2 totally different people?

MEANING OF PERDITION:Entire loss; utter destruction; ruin; esp., the utter loss of the soul, or of final happiness in a future state; future misery or eternal death.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

If the Man of SIN was Nero-666 then we have the Son of Perdition to be revealed....I know many have said is Obama that person, but really could he be?

Paul wrote similar words to the Thessalonians, ‘The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders’ (2 Thes 2:9).

John in the book of Revelation records his vision of a beast coming out of the earth. In similar words he says, ‘And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men.

Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived those who dwell on the earth’ (Rev 13: 13,14).

"For The Son Of Man Will Come Like The Lightning, Which Flashes Across The Whole Sky From The East To The West." For Discussion:

[Quix]

LOL.

[topcat54]

I believe the rapture doctrine is one of the most dangerous doctrines ever taught in that it causes Christians to be nonchalant, and unprepared for the things coming on this earth. Instead, they are expecting to mysteriously vanish and suffer nothing when the bible is explicit that Christians will see suffering, and even clearer that those who endure until the end shall be saved.

Also, imagine the confusion and mixed signals it produces in the mind of those who believe that God is not yet finished with physical Israel. We are told the God has a plan for Israel after the flesh that can only be accomplished after the Church is “raptured”. What incentive is there to bring the gospel to Jewish people when they are clearly supposed to be left behind ® and suffer things in the future tribulation period, and then, perhaps, go into the millennium as some special, unified race of people? God forbid that they would get converted to Christ before things heat up and they miss their true calling along with the rest of physical Israel.

[thatjoeguy]

I completely agree. Its a doctrine that calls for Two separate ‘Second Comings’ (1 Thess. 4:16 vs Mat. 24:30), two last trumpets (1 Cor. 15:52 vs Rev. 11:15), two FIRST resurrections (1 Thess. 4:16 vs Rev. 20:5), and it requires that the Day of the Lord take 7 years instead of one day (1 Thess. 5:9 vs Zech. 14:7).

All without any scriptural support.

Is this the ‘LIE’ spoken of in 2 Thess. 2:11, I don’t believe it is but if someone believes this lie what chance do they have against the next one.

Finally, I look back to the First Coming as an example of what to expect for the Second Coming. How’s that, well despite knowing the scriptures (OT) at that time, they still didn’t ‘get it’ despite all the signs and wonders. Its easy for us to look back and comment on how in the world could they have missed the obvious. But I feel the Second Coming will happen just the same way. I don’t see us during the ‘tribulation’ being knocked back on our heels watching earth shattering events just in awe of what is happening. I believe it’ll happen for the most part right under our noses and so wont even be recognized by some until its too late as we learned in the parable of the virgins.

JB

[HKMk23]

1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
-- II Thess. 2:1 NASB

Paul writes very specifically in his intro to this subject that there are TWO EVENTS, and they happen in a certain order:
— the coming of our Lord
— our being gathered

The order in which Paul wrote them gives us the order in which they will occur: Christ will appear, and then we will be gathered to him. That chronology mandates that Christ appears before the rapture of the Saints, and that order of events obliterates the possibility of a pre-trib, or mid-trib rapture scenario.

Personally, I think I am on good footing to assert that there IS a rapture, and that it is at the point where the Great Tribulation transitions into the final outpouring of wrath; after the Seal and the Trumpet judgments, but before the Bowls of Wrath are poured out.

I leave you free to argue about this to your heart's content (or discontent, as the case may be), but I challenge you to take it as an exercise to ask as many people as you like the following question, and make careful note of the order in which they give you their answers:
"When you think of 'The Holiday Season' what holidays come to mind?"

I can guaranatee you -- because humans live and think as chronological beings -- that well over 90% of your respondents will list their answers in chronological order, just as St. Paul listed the coming events in chronological order.

[PleaseNoMore]

The order in which Paul wrote them gives us the order in which they will occur: Christ will appear, and then we will be gathered to him. That chronology mandates that Christ appears before the rapture of the Saints, and that order of events obliterates the possibility of a pre-trib, or mid-trib rapture scenario.

We are gathered uto Him at His second coming; just as the dead arise. Not before, but after. I believe we will be divinely protected, and supernatural provision will occur for us, but we will be here to the end.

[PleaseNoMore]

Finally, I look back to the First Coming as an example of what to expect for the Second Coming. How’s that, well despite knowing the scriptures (OT) at that time, they still didn’t ‘get it’ despite all the signs and wonders. Its easy for us to look back and comment on how in the world could they have missed the obvious. But I feel the Second Coming will happen just the same way. I don’t see us during the ‘tribulation’ being knocked back on our heels watching earth shattering events just in awe of what is happening. I believe it’ll happen for the most part right under our noses and so wont even be recognized by some until its too late as we learned in the parable of the virgins.

Awesome point. I agree.

[Quix]

Some folks seem to have vast warehouses full of absurdities.

. . . and a cheeky tendency to spread them liberally around.

[PleaseNoMore]

Good points.

[Quix]

I don’t think anyone has THE RAPTURE nor some other key END TIMES events

close to precisely or some even remotely all figured out.

However, some things are more absurd than others.

[HKMk23]

Well, I think Paul, John, and Peter had it pretty much dead-on, and they wrote enough about it in plain enough language, that it shouldn’t take a Master Jigsaw Puzzler to fit the passages together into a cohesive narrative.

The Cuisinart approach to eschatological scripture just makes no sense to me.

In thirty years I’ve gone from “The Late, Great Planet Earth” to more the historic reformed view. I’m convinced we’re in it for the duration to be salt, light, and a witness in the Earth up to the very threshold of The Winepress of The Wrath of YHVH. I believe that, while the Tribulation will truly be Great, those times will also be The Church’s finest hour.

Having The Church leave the stage before the climax of the play just makes no sense to me.

I have come to an understanding that The Great Tribulation is the ultimate method by which YHVH will manifest the extent of His love and mercy in that out of it will come the salvation of the most, and the destruction of the fewest. There is GREAT redemptive purpose in The Tribulation, and since we — The Church — have been given the ministry of Reconciliation, how could we NOT be present?

That wouldn’t make sense to me.

Also, I consider that The Great Tribulation is the only crucible sufficient to the adequate refinement, and purification of Christendom into a Bride worthy of The Son of God; glorious, and without spot or stain. Yeah, it’s “not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit, saith The LORD,” but He’s got a bunch of work to do before this present, disheveled, unfaithful, scatterbrained, and argumentative lady is ready for her wedding to His Son. Reviewing scripture, I don’t see anything besides The Tribulation that could be the forge in which such a miraculously radical, and complete transformation takes place.

It just makes sense to me.

So, there you have it; that’s what I think. It’s not what I’ve always thought, and I can’t say it’ll be exactly what I think tomorrow (I’m still keen to nail down whether The Church is on the Earth right through the Bowls of Wrath, or not), but I’m striving for betterment, and what I think right now is an improvement in scriptural “fit” versus what I used to think.

Lastly, if anyone would be contentious, know that I’m a “pan-millennialist” at heart: I believe it’ll all pan out, in the end. ;-)

[HKMk23]

Now HERE is what I consider to be a jaw-dropping possibility for the actual meaning of Revelation 13:18.

Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
— Rev. 13:18 KJV

In the image below, the figures at the top are Arabic for "in the name of Allah". Below that are the three letters from the Greek Codex Vaticanus [ca. 350AD] that stand for the "number" that the KJV renders "666".

Take each Arabic character, rotate it 90-degrees counterclockwise, then mirror it. The result is shockingly similar to the Greek. The theory is that what John saw, he faithfully replicated on his parchment, but a subsequent scribe mistook the Arabic characters for malformed Greek ones, and substituted proper Greek letters in place of the Arabic.

Just a theory, but -- yikes! What a stunner!

[Quix]

That sounds like

you believe that

The Great Tribulation

IS THE GREAT PURIFIER OF SAINTS

AND NOT

THE BLOOD OF JESUS.

I have a very serious problem with that.

Also, those not living—who’ve graduated from this life before THE GREAT TRIBULATION

missed out on THE GREAT PURIFICATION

and so have to take a lower rank when ruling and reigning with Christ?

Doesn’t sound Scriptural, to me.

[topcat54]

Now HERE is what I consider to be a jaw-dropping possibility for the actual meaning of Revelation 13:18.

While this may appear interesting on the surface, the problem with the explanation is that it would have made absolutely no sense to the first century believers to whom the book of Revelation was written. Both the Arabic language script and the concept of Allah were foreign to that generation and did not come until hundreds of years later. And if we need to resort to turning the image sideways, or taking a mirror image, or in way physically transforming the material, then that is very questionable.

And he said to me, "Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand. (Rev. 22:10)

Although it is admittedly one step above the “Ronald Wilson Reagan” is the Antichrist genre of interpretation, I think that any explanation that works in opposition to that plain statement is suspect.

[Quix]

Cue laughing dog slapping floor.

[topcat54]

[thatjoeguy]

I’ve seen this as well in a Walid Shoebat video on youtube. While I agree with much of Shoebat’s interpretations regarding the middle east and its place in Bible prophecy and to the similarities in the images presented I’m of the mind to go with what topcat54’s comments are and furthermore how John clearly says that its the ‘number’ of his name.

We may be losing sight of the purpose of the number/symbol. It was given to us so that we can recognize the one person “man” we call the anti-christ/beast when he comes, not to associate (or recognize) it with a group of people or religion.

JB

[Quix]

Thanks for the ping.

[kalee]

lol 668, is your neighbor Hillary?

[HKMk23]

Well I’m happy to learn that you have a problem with the unbiblical position you incorrectly “heard” me advocate.

I must say, though, I am a bit disappointed that you did not exert greater effort to “hear” me correctly.

You know as well as I do that all who are in Christ are positionally pure, and sealed with the Spirit, because of the shed blood of Jesus. That point is not “in play,” and I would have thought that, given our prior exchanges, you would have known me well enough to at least presume that I meant something else; something NOT blatantly opposed to the Truth of Scripture.

On the plus side, though, you being obtuse — intentional, or not — does give me a reason to explain it.

So, for the “hearing impaired” ...

When I say that “the Great Tribulation is the crucible for the purification of The Church,” I mean “purification” NOT in the sense that it purifies the souls of individual Christians, but that it forces a purification of practice in the lives of individuals; it makes the committed more so, and drives out the uncommitted. YES, individuals who are in Christ are Spiritually purified, already, but that doesn’t mean that church houses around the world are devoid of sin, and corruption, or that people who are really saved aren’t caught up in any of it. It just isn’t so. Divorce is every bit as rampant in churches as outside of them, and many of those church-going divorced people really ARE saved; I know several. That is just one example.

Jesus famously told John the Revelator regarding the Laodiceans, “I wish that you were either hot or cold.” The Great Tribulation is going to force that decision. There will not be any such thing as a “lukewarm” Christian; you, and I and every other church-goer will either get all the way in, or all the way out. The crucible of The Great Tribulation will simply be too intense for nominal Christianity to survive. Those who are, today, “nominal” Christians are going to come face-to-face with the contrast between how they have been living, and how Christ is calling them to live, and they will respond by either falling to their knees, or turning their backs. One way or the other, there will be a decisive change, and they will NOT be “nominal” anymore.

THAT, is what I mean when I say that “The Great Tribulation is the crucible that will purify The Church.”

Happily, there is still time to “get all the way in” before you’re forced to choose one way or the other. Choose while the choice is still free.

[668 - Neighbor of the Beast]

If only!
Better Hillary, than the “islamic center” next door. Fundamentalist variety from Pakistan. :(