Nails In The Preterist-Replacementarian's Perspective's Coffin

That puzzling space between Quix's ears. | 6 MAR 2009 | Quix

[Quix]

NAILS IN THE PRETERIST--REPLACEMENTARIAN COFFIN

SCRIPTURES AND QUIX COMMENTARY
ISAIAH:

1.	2:1-5: The Mountain of the Lord 1 This is what Isaiah son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem:	This was not some fantasy. This was some future reality that the God-beyond-time SHOWED Isaiah.
2.	2 In the last days the mountain of the LORD's temple will be established as chief among the mountains; it will be raised above the hills, and all nations will stream to it.	1) "IN the LAST DAYS." I realize that Preterist—REPLACEMENTARIANS do not believe in the Bible verses about the LAST DAYS—however, they are GOD’S WORD. And, given Blood Israel’s being regathered [far from complete] again to the Holy Land, we are certainly in that era regardless of the blindness of some perspectives. 2) “The mountain of the Lord’s Temple…” CLEARLY God WILL HAVE ANOTHER TEMPLE built on HIS HOLY MOUNTAIN—regardless of REPLACEMENTARIAN OR PALISTINIAN PROTESTS to the contrary. 3) “will be established as chief amongst the mountains.” Scripture is quite clear that GOD’S HOLY MOUNTAIN WILL BE THE HIGHEST. I personally believe—higher than any other in the whole world. Even if it’s only within that geographic region—it will certainly be highest of any for many miles around—any within sight. Nothing else would make consistent sense with the text. 4) “all nations will stream into it.” CLEARLY THIS HAS NOT HAPPENED YET. It certainly did not happen in 70A.D.! It will not happen until after Armageddon. AS we see the oligarchy setting the stage for Armageddon . . . and delusionally believing they can defeat Almighty God at Armageddon . . . we can realize that we haven’t long to wait for this ancient prophecy to be literally fulfilled. PRAISE GOD! BLESSED BE THE NAME OF THE LORD!

ISAIAH 2:3

3.	3 Many peoples will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths." The law will go out from Zion, the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.		1) “Many peoples will come” Again, this clearly has not happened yet. Nevertheless, GOD IS DECLARING, ALMIGHTY GOD! … IS DECLARING THAT IT WILL HAPPEN—THAT MANY PEOPLE WILL STREAM FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD TO GOD’S HOLY MOUNTAIN AND THE JEWISH TEMPLE BUILT THEREON. Another Scripture indicates, that IF THEY DO NOT—that nation that does not send such delegations will not get any rain. 2) and say, COME LET US GO UP! The picture I’ve persistently had when reading such verses is that of a JOYOUS—LET US GO UP UNTO THE LORD AND HIS VERY JEWISH TEMPLE ON HIS MOUNTAIN IN HIS HOLY LAND! It is a grand and joyous calling to one’s friends and loved ones to join in the pilgrimage. 3) to the mountain of The Lord. Again—this is no average mountain. This is a mountain without peer. This is THE MOUNTAIN OF THE LORD GOD ALM IGHTY OF THE ANGEL ARMIES—as a number of passages call Him. And it has not yet been raised up as it will be. 4) TO the house of THE GOD of JACOB! Note—the verse does not say: TO THE CONGREGATION OF THE MESSIAH—though logically, Christians will certainly have residence and identity there. NO! THE EMPHASIS IS—the God of JACOB—the third Patriarch of the tribes of . . . NOT Methodists, NOT Presbyterians, NOT Episcopalians, NOT Assemblies of God, NOT Vineyards, NOT Calvary Chapels—NO—THE EMPHASIS IS—THE GOD OF JACOB! I realize that REPLACEMENTARIANS will think God goofed when HE wrote that emphasis in. Or else they will deny it’s any kind of emphasis. Or maybe they will just ignore the facts altogether—a common rationalization on the part of their camp, it seems. 5) HE will teach us HIS WAYS! So, Dear Replacementarians, tell us—when, exactly in 70 AD did this happen where Nations from all over the earth streamed into the highest mountain in the Holy Land with a hastily rebuilt THIRD Jewish Temple to sit at the feet of God and learn HIS WAYS there in that unusual mountain and that THIRD Jewish Temple? Was it in the first month? Maybe the 6th month? The 8th? Oh, right, it didn’t happen at all. It hasn’t happened yet. But the puzzle pieces are sure moving into place for it to happen! PRAISE GOD. BLESSED BE HIS NAME! 6) SO that we may walk in HIS PATHS! Ahhhhhhhhh . . . sooooo where are all these Nations in the world so eager to walk in JACOB’S GOD’S PATHS? OH, RIGHT, they are lining up to destroy Jacob’s descendants. Pesky fact, that. It Hasn’t happened yet that they have learned their lesson and are eager then to learn THE GOD OF JACOB’S WAYS. However it IS STILL VERY MUCH ON THE GOD OF JACOB’S SCHEDULE! 7) The LAW [of the God of Jacob] WILL go out from ZION! NOT from Pike’s Peak! NOT from Salt Lake! NOT from Milwaukee! NOT from Springfield! NOT from Coasta Mesa! NOT from Cantebury! NOT from Rome! FROM ZION! UNIQUE IN ALL THE WORLD TO JACOB AND JACOB’S GOD. 8) The WORD OF THE LORD [of Jacob] FROM JERUSALEM! THE HOLY CITY! THE GOD OF JACOB’SJEWISH HOLY CITY first and foremost. Thankfully Christians have been grafted in as citizens, as well! PRAISE GOD FOR HIS FAITHFULNESS TO ABRAHAM, ISAAC AND JACOB. That demonstrates to me that He WILL BE FAITHFUL TO ME, his Blood Bought adopted son.

[Quix]

I’ve met Hal Lindsey in a small group setting.

I’d be honored.

[xjcsa]

That’s a perfectly plausible explanation of that verse.

It's a gross rationalization, or "glossing over", if you will. But to each his own.

That said - you believe you have a reasonable explanation for this passage. I can understand that viewpoint, and I do not in any serious way believe that you would consider yourself to "not believe" that portion of scripture. I would never make that accusation, except to make a point, because to do so would be a gross distortion of what you actually believe.

The same is true when you claim that Preterists "don't believe" passages of Scripture. You can claim that our view on a passage is a distortion or a rationalization, you can claim that our views have weaknesses, you can claim lots of things. But to claim that we "don't believe" them is simply false. We might believe different things about those passages, we might interpret them different ways, but we most definitely "believe" them.

Just trying to provide a little perspective.

[topcat54]

So you’re going for the eye for an eye thing? At least we are dealing in the right Testament. Lets look at Israel now.

Isn't that part of the problem, you guys only want to look at one testament and ignore the other?

[Blogger]

Got that the other way around topcat.

[topcat54]

As I’ve explained before . . . Y’all have insisted that Israel is REPLACED by Christians wholesale.

Your explanation is still wrong. The idea only exists in your mind. No one has ever said that. You don't see it, and that is why conversation with you is nearly impossible, except for your AMEN crowd.

And Hal Lindsey is a serial polygamist goof.

[Blogger]

That’s cool. I don’t tend to use them either. Every so often I’ll get a RM scolding, but for the most part my record is clean officer :)

[raynearhood]

Y’all have insisted that Israel is REPLACED by Christians wholesale.

Topcat's been through this before.

I have noted that I struggled to find a better short-hand label and was unable to find one.

Try EXPANSIONIST!!!

At least you'd be accurate and still have an "ist" word to toss around.

[Quix]

There’s a VERY significant difference on a number of Scriptures.

I hope to continue to document them.

The 3rd Temple thing is one of them.

When during the 1st or 2nd Temple were ALL the NATIONS of the world “streaming” to MT ZION

which “had” “been” raised up above all other mountains

. . . and those Nations not sending delegations suffered no rain?

There’s no such history nor reality. Nada. Zip.

ABJECTLY DOES NOT FIT SCRIPTURE NOR HISTORY.

I’m left with the inescapable conclusion that preterists-replacementarians simply do not believe Isaiah 2:1-5.

1. They insist there is no/ has been no/ will be no 3rd Temple.
2. Therefore, those verses MUST HAVE BEEN FULFILLED during the first or 2nd Temples.
3. There was no rearranging by a massive quake of MT Zion during the 1st nor the 2nd Temple periods.
4. Nor did ALL the countries of the world send delegations and tribute to the Temple or suffer no rain.

So, how is there a shred of wiggle room left claiming y’all

ACTUALLY STILL BELIEVE ISAIAH 2:1-5???

I can’t think of a logical out for you.

However, given the convoluted extrapolation skills of that perspective, perhaps one will be presented in due course.

[Blogger]

Expansionism is not an adequate title for what Preterists believe concerning Israel. Preterists do not believe that key promises, such as those concerning the actual land of Israel, are in effect today. Israel can partake of only the same promises that the grafted in Christians partake in and no more. Thus, it isn’t an expansion of the earlier promises but a replacement and obliteration of those promises.

[Quix]

As best I can remember the “explanation” offered . . . to use the word generously . . .

It went something like . . .

No. We don’t believe that Christians replaced Israel . . .

yada yada yada . . . several lines later . . . CHRISTIANS ARE NOW SPIRITUAL ISRAEL. THERE IS NO OTHER ISRAEL IN GOD’S REALITY ETC. ETC. ETC.

I really tried to give y’all the benefit of the doubt on that but the REPLACEMENTARIAN part just kept being propounded ad nauseum . . . and I had to accept that it was what y’all believed in toto.

And little to nothing y’all have ever said has hindered that forced conviction in the least. Virtually everything that’s been expounded on the topic has hammered that point home emphatically . . . that as far as preterists are concerned

BLOOD DESCENDANTS OF ABRAHAM, ISAAC AND JACOB ARE

OUT

as far as God is concerned—of no more interest than Swahili’s or Ubangi’s or Eskimo’s—particularly in prophetic terms etc. and

ONLY CHRISTIANS are of any interest or applicability from or to God’s perspective and certainly in any prophetic terms.

Now if y’all have abandoned such an absurd position, I’m all ears and eyes.

[Blogger]

Incidentally, the post you quote doesn’t prove that the distinction of “replacement” is false. Rather, the snarly attack proves another portion of prophecy which Dispensationists take note of:

2 Peter 3
2That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

3Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

[Quix]

BALDERDASH.

Saying

“t’ain’t so”

does NOT make it false!

LOL.

[Quix]

Preterists do not believe that key promises, such as those concerning the actual land of Israel, are in effect today. Israel can partake of only the same promises that the grafted in Christians partake in and no more. Thus, it isn’t an expansion of the earlier promises but a replacement and obliteration of those promises.

INDEED.

It is persistently sooooooooooooooooooooooooooo fascinating to watch all the finger wringing, screaming, wailing and fussing about how REPLACEMENTARIANISM is NOT TRUE OF THEM--FOLLOWED IMMEDIATELY BY LONG PONTIFICATIONS ABOUT HOW ISRAEL IS UTTERLY REPLACED!

They must think we are REALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLY ILLOGICAL IDIOTS UNABLE TO COMPREHEND BASIC ENGLISH! LOL.

[Quix]

INDEED.

Sadly.

[topcat54]

BLOOD DESCENDANTS OF ABRAHAM, ISAAC AND JACOB ARE

Sadly, you still cannot read very well, or you refuse to acknowledge that the Church is made up of both Jews (the physical descendants of Abraham, etc) and gentiles. Obviously God has not finished dealing with Abraham's physical children since many of them are being brought to Christ every day and (re)grafted into the olive tree.

Or perhaps that is not good enough for you?

So it is purely ignorant to keep insisting that your boogeyman "replacementarians" teach the nonsense you accuse them of teaching.

Since I cannot force you to see the truth, I guess we must continue to suffer with your fabrications and misunderstanding as well as your bad theology to go with it.

Or you could change your tune.

[raynearhood]

Thus, it isn’t an expansion of the earlier promises but a replacement and obliteration of those promises.

Incorrect.

First of all, this false "replacement theology" title isn't dealing with preterism exclusively. More accurately, it deals with covenant theology as a whole. I am personally not a preterist. Eschatologically, I'm amil with some post-mil leanings. However, my beliefs on the Church/Israel has got me labled Replacementarian also.

Second, we don't believe that the Church "replaced" Israel, but that Israel was expanded to everyone that's in Christ. Thus the true Israel is not just the bloodline of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The true Israel are the recipients of the Promises of God, all fulfilled in Christ (2 Corintians 1:20).

[raynearhood]

reply #56

[Quix]

I have an early men’s area Christian breakfast tomorrow and am getting tired.

Until another day . . .

Your post is exceedingly unconvincing.

It’s a slipping and sliding around too many other very pointed assertions of the pile of preterists/replacementarians represented hereon.

Y’all have bristled at the very idea that God could have ANYTHING special uniquely slated for the blood descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob

AT ALL.

That’s pretty conclusively REPLACEMENTARIAN, to me.

Y’all said those things RELENTLESSLY, REPEATEDLY, EMPHATICALLY, OFTEN MEANLY.

But when the kitchen gets too hot . . . then y’all wail about us taking your meaning wrong.

VERY IMPRESSIVE.
/sar

[raynearhood]

Wait, wait...

What are we arguing here?

Non-Dispensationalists are the “scoffers”? OR are we dealing with the “day of the Lord,” “thief in the night” argument?

[raynearhood]

Y’all said those things RELENTLESSLY, REPEATEDLY, EMPHATICALLY, OFTEN MEANLY

Pot... Kettle

Kettle... Pot

Have a nice conversation.