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To: bdeaner; All

Perhaps you can give me the interpretation of the following from the Council of Florence, which I believe is considered to be an Ecumenical Council of the Roman Catholic Church, which is in line with the article?

It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church. (Denzinger 714).

Wow, shedding blood for Christ! That is a doozy for the Catholic Church to defend with its new Vatican II veneer. Is that one of those two thousand year old unchanging traditions taught by Christ to the apostles? Auigh!

Father, forgive them for they know not what they do in Your name...


80 posted on 06/28/2009 8:09:12 AM PDT by Ottofire (Philippians 1:21: For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.)
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To: Ottofire
From the Catechism:

"Outside the Church there is no salvation" 846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

These lines taken from the catechism of the catholic church demonstrates that the teaching of the church has not been changed since the Council of Florence, but our understanding of God's desire for the salvation of all men leaves room for him to save whom he will. and in whatever way he sees fit.

For more information, see here:

Vatican II & Ecumenism: What Did the Council Really Say

God bless.
447 posted on 06/28/2009 8:33:13 PM PDT by bdeaner (The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? (1 Cor. 10:16))
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To: Ottofire
shed blood for the name of Christ

By the way, you (understandably) misinterpreted this statement of the Papal Bull. It has an unintended ambiguous meaning. You interpreted the statement to mean someone who has shed SOMEONE ELE'S blood in Christ's name--which indeed would be twisted. But in fact the statement is in regard to martyrs who have had their OWN blood shed for the name of Christ. The meaning is clearer in the original language.


518 posted on 06/28/2009 11:31:52 PM PDT by bdeaner (The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? (1 Cor. 10:16))
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