Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

How to testify
Lds Church News ^ | Sept. 19, 2009

Posted on 09/20/2009 2:46:15 PM PDT by Colofornian

SNIP

Sharing testimonies is an important part of the Latter-day Saint experience. We bear testimonies in many settings — in the home with family and among friends and associates or in missionary experiences. In Church, one Sunday is set aside every month for the bearing of testimonies during sacrament meetings.

SNIP

In his address at the October 2004 general conference, Elder M. Russell Ballard of the Quorum of the Twelve...said that his experience throughout the Church leads him to worry that too many members' testimonies linger on "I am thankful," and "I love," and too few are able to say with humble but sincere clarity, "I know." As a result, he noted, meetings sometimes lack the testimony-rich, spiritual underpinnings that stir the soul and have meaningful, positive impact on the lives of all those who hear them.

He...counseled, "We need to replace stories, travelogues and lectures with pure testimonies. Those who are entrusted to speak and teach in our meetings need to do so with doctrinal power that will be both heard and felt, lifting the spirits and edifying our people."

SNIP

As we listen to general conference this October, we will hear many bear pure testimony. Numerous times over the years, we have heard President Thomas S. Monson, first as an apostle and now as president of the Church, bear such testimony. May we, as Primary children sing, be inclined to "follow the prophet" in our endeavor to nurture, strengthen and share our testimonies that we have a Heavenly Father who loves us, that Jesus is the Christ, Joseph Smith was the prophet who was raised up to restore the fullness of the everlasting gospel...

(Excerpt) Read more at ldschurchnews.com ...


TOPICS: Other Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: antimormonthread; josephsmith; lds; mormon; testimony
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-50 ... 401-450451-500501-550 ... 601-603 next last
To: DelphiUser
And you were just trying to tell me how much you know about our religion, LOL!

Some folks are poor teachers.

What was that about the MORMON hell that I don't know?

451 posted on 10/01/2009 3:46:16 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 424 | View Replies]

To: DelphiUser
It means that Joseph as the first prophet of this dispensation will testify that the gospel was being taught and those who did not accept it will be condemned by his testimony that they had it available.
 
 
Sigh... Yet another NON-answer.
 
Why must I be the one that posts MORMON info?
 



 
Mormon versus Christian definitions
 
 
Word...
 
Mormon
 
Christian
Atonement
 
(1) Used almost exclusively as a reference to Jesus' conquering physical death for all people.  By conquering physical death, Jesus made it possible for all people to enter again into the presence of Heavenly Father - if for no other reason than to be judged by him.  In other words, they are again 'at-one' with him (atoned).  This will happen at Judgment Day.  Those who have earned it will live in the Celestial Kingdom with Heavenly Father.  Everyone else will live outside of the presence of Heavenly Father. 
(2) At times atonement includes the thought of Jesus' paying for people's sins.  But underlying all such references is the thought that they have to pay him back.  For a good example of the LDS view of Jesus' atoning work, see Gospel Principles chapter 12. 
Jesus' complete payment, made once, for all the sins of all the people of the entire world. 
Hebrews 7:27: Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. 
1 Peter 3:18:  For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God.  Through faith in Jesus' payment, we are given eternal life in heaven. 
Bible
One of four books Mormons consider scripture. They believe it to be the Word of God "as far as it is translated correctly" (Eighth Article of Faith).  They believe many precious parts have been lost from it (1 Nephi 13:28).  Consequently they consider it the least reliable of the scriptures.  Many Mormons are not familiar with it. 
The inspired, complete and inerrant Word of God.
Damnation
Mormon's Plan of Salvation outlines an intricate process of progression toward eternal life (exaltation).  Anything that stops a person in their progression, such as dying without having a celestial marriage, is considered damnation as it blocks or dams their progression. 
The consequence of unbelief.  Unbelief results in damnation, that is, suffering eternal punishment in hell.
 
Eternal Life (Exaltation)
Living eternally as a god, synonymous with godhood and exaltation.  "Exaltation means the same thing as eternal life" (Learn of Me, p. 72).  Eternal life  is reserved for those who attain the highest level of the celestial kingdom.  Mormons must become perfect, have received their endowment, and been married in the temple (Celestial Marriage) before they can earn eternal life.  This eternal life will be lived both with Heavenly Father in the celestial kingdom and as god over their own world which they will populate with their own children. 
By faith in Jesus' payment for our sins, we are given the gift of eternal life living with God in heaven as his children.
Faith

(1)  The belief that God exists and has given a good plan of salvation (Mormonism). 
(2) The power God gives Mormons whereby they can resist sin and become perfect. "But he must believe the truth, obey the truth, and practice the truth, to obtain the power of God called faith" (Past Living Prophet and President Brigham Young quoted in Teachings of Presidents of the Church Brigham Young p. 56).  The more righteous a person is, the more power (faith) God will give him.  "To those who have not begun the quest of comprehension, the word faith appears to be only a synonym for a kind of belief or conviction....It is a principle of power" (Sharing the Gospel Manual, p. 82).
The sure hope of our deliverance from death to eternal life in heaven.  Faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit.
Forgiveness
Must be earned through what may be "weeks, years, or centuries" of effort. To be forgiven of a sin, one must meet the demands of the LDS definition of repentance for that sin. God 'remembers' the original sin and you lose your forgiveness if you recommit the sin.
The undeserved gift of having your sins separated from you "as far as the east is from the west". Because Jesus paid our penalty as our substitute, we are considered guiltless by God. God does not remember our sins.
Gift
 
Mormonism has expanded the definition of the term 'gift'.  The expanded definition includes as 'gifts' things which are rewarded to an individual only after first completing certain requirements or first demonstrating sufficient worthiness.  The expanded definition also includes as 'gifts' things which once received, obligate the receiver to a set of conditions; which, if broken revoke the 'gift'.  Most 'gifts' in Mormonism actually fall under the expanded part of the Mormon definition (eternal life, grace, forgiveness, the help of the Holy Ghost, most of God's many blessings).  Mormon doctrine goes so far as to say that God is 'obligated' to give a particular 'gift' once the prescribed prerequisites have been achieved by the receiver of the gift.   Most of the 'gifts' of Mormonism are not gifts but rewards, compensation, obligatory payments, and contracts.
A gift is something we receive which is undeserved, unearned, offered freely by the bestower.
Gospel
A term that refers to Mormonism in general.  Or in particular, Mormonism's intricate plan of salvation.  "Mormonism so-called - which actually is the gospel of Christ, restored anew this day" (Sharing the Gospel Manual, p. 176). 
The "Good News" of free and full salvation (eternal life with God in heaven) won for mankind by Jesus Christ.
 
Grace

 

The power God gives people to save themselves, conditional on their earning it by doing all they can do on their own.  "This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts" (LDS Bible Dictionary, p. 697).  "We know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do" (2 Nephi 25:23).  This grace does not directly provide them with eternal life, but rather with the power to make up the difference between "all they can do" and perfection. 
The unconditional, free gift of eternal life given us through faith in Jesus' saving work.  Ephesians 2:8-9:  For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
Heaven
Any of the three kingdoms Celestial, Terrestrial, and Telestial.  Life even on the lowest kingdom will be much better than earth, and even the vilest of unbelievers will receive a life in heaven.   "The book (Doctrine and Covenants) explains clearly that the lowest glory to which man is assigned is so glorious as to be beyond the understanding of man.  It is a doctrine fundamental in Mormonism that the meanest sinner, in the final judgment, will receive a glory which is beyond human understanding, which is go great that we are unable to describe it adequately." (John A. Widtsoe, quoted in Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual, p. 166).  Yet, even in the highest kingdom all but those who have earned exaltation will have less than complete happiness.  "How lonely and barren will be the so-called single blessedness throughout eternity!" (Temples of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, p. 19). 
God's glorious home, where all who believed in Jesus' saving work will live forever happy with him.  Revelations 21:3-4:  And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.".
Hell

 
(1) Not a place of eternal punishment but the temporary state of suffering wicked spirits experience in spirit prison before Judgment Day.  "That part of the spirit world inhabited by wicked spirits who are awaiting the eventual day of resurrection is called hell....Hell will have an end" (Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual, p. 165). 
(2)  The regret the inhabitants of the lower kingdoms will experience as they see the glories of the celestial kingdom is described in Mormon literature as a kind of hell. 
(3) Mormons call Satan's domain Outer Darkness.  Only those who leave the LDS church are sent to Outer Darkness.
Satan's domain of unending torment.  Mark 9:47-48: And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where ‘their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.’  All unbelievers will be cast into hell.  Matthew 25:41: "Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Justification
Unfamiliar term to most Mormons.  Mormonism describes it as God's strict confirmation of the merits or demerits of man's own actions.  In other words, LDS justification is God's act of rewarding people on their own actions, rewarding right and punishing wrong. 
God declares us (believers) not guilty on the basis of Christ's atoning work.
Paid - As in "Jesus paid for my sins".
Mormonism uses the word 'paid' as a synonym for 'refinanced'.  When a Mormon says "Jesus paid for my sins", he does not mean that he no longer owes the debt of sin, merely that the creditor and the terms have changed.  The entire debt still remains to be paid! 
When a Christian says "Jesus paid for my sins", he means that his entire payment for all his sins has been made, no more debt remains, no further payment is due or could even be made.
Repentance
"It is a long road spiked with thorns and briars and pitfalls and problems" Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness quoted in Gospel Principles, page 123.

The Mormon definition includes:
  1) sorrow for your sins.
  2) abandoning [never again committing] each and every sin.
  3) confessing each sin.
  4) restitution, as far as it is possible, for every sin ever committed.
  5) freely forgive anyone who ever sinned against you.
  6) obedience to all of God's other commands [in essence - perfection].
  7) perform works to make up for the sin.
  8) there can be no repentance without punishment.
  9) you will not even desire to commit the sin again!

Points 1-7 referenced in Gospel Principles, pages 124-125. 

Point 8 referenced in Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual, page 224

Point 9 referenced in Missionary Discussions, page 2-14 / Study Guide 2, page 3.

From Teachings of the Presidents of the Church Joseph F. Smith: True repentance is not only sorrow for sins, and humble penitence and contrition before God, but it involves the necessity of turning away from them, a discontinuance of all evil practices and deeds, a thorough reformation of life, a vital change from evil to good, from vice to virtue, from darkness to light.  Not only so, but to make restitution, so far as it is possible, for all the wrongs we have done, to pay our debts, and restore to God and man their rights - that which is due to them from us.   

Literally, a change of mind.  A turning of one's heart from trust in yourself and your works to trust in Jesus and his work for you.  Such a change of heart will result in sorrow for one's sins and a humble attitude of following God's will.
Redemption
Synonymous with atonement. 
Christ bought all mankind back (redeemed) from the wages of our sin.  See atonement.
Salvation
(1)  For most Mormons this is equivalent to physical resurrection, the reuniting of body and soul on Judgment Day.  This is the only free gift in Mormonism.  This is why many can say they believe they are saved by Jesus alone.  They mean that they believe they don't have to do anything to be resurrected.  However, this salvation does not grant eternal life (exaltation).  That is based on their successful completion of their plan of salvation.  Mormonism states that if one makes no effort and is an unbeliever he / she will still be resurrected and assigned a place in the lowest kingdom.  Therefore, a Mormon can say that a person is granted heaven solely on Jesus' atoning work.  And that person need not even believe in Jesus to attain it. 
(2)  Sometimes 'salvation' is used as a synonym for exaltation, as in "Plan of Salvation" (actually the plan of exaltation). 
The free gift of eternal life in heaven with God given us through faith in Jesus' saving work.
Sanctification
A term not commonly used in Mormonism.  They use it to refer to a state of saintliness which is obtained as people purify themselves by overcoming sin. 
(1)  Believers in Jesus' saving work are considered saints by God (sanctified).  This refers to our status as citizens of heaven, while living on earth. 
(2)  While on earth, the continuing work of the Holy Spirit resulting in the strengthening of our faith and becoming increasingly Christ-like (holy). 
(3)  The final change that occurs on Judgment Day where believers are forever separated from their sinful nature and are thereby made holy.
Sin
A word not commonly used by Mormons since Mormonism has a weak view of sin.  "But all of us are guilty of sin to some degree" (Gospel Principles, p. 117).  Instead of talking about sin, they use words such as bad habits, infractions, mistakes, and poor judgments. 
Any violation of God's commands, whether in thought, word, or deed.  Includes any and all trespass, transgression, iniquity, wickedness, etc.  Includes sins of omission (not doing what we are commanded) as well as commission (doing what we are commanded not to do).
Plan of Salvation
In general, Mormonism.   Specifically, an intricate plan outlining a process of progression toward eternal life (exaltation).  Steps in this process include becoming perfect, temple endowment, and celestial marriage.  All the laws and ordinances of Mormonism embody the plan.
 
God's plan of sacrificing his perfect son so that all who believe in him are saved (given eternal life).  John 3:14-17:  Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him."
 
 
CONDEMNED??
 
To WHERE??

452 posted on 10/01/2009 3:49:24 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 426 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian
...Mormons scolding Christians ...

Hummm...

Where has THIS ever happened???

453 posted on 10/01/2009 3:51:00 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 428 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian
(Can you say, "Inconsistent Joe?")

Of course!

That is yet ANOTHER way we MORMONs know that JS (pbuh) was called of GOD!

It shows his human imperfection - that he was ABLE to be used of GOD.

--MormonDuqe(Sorta like Balaam's talking ass.)

454 posted on 10/01/2009 3:56:07 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 430 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian
And when you catch the fuller drift of Joseph Smith statements (D&C 93 & otherwise)...
 

 
Can you mention the D&C's??
 
  MORMONs  (the SLC branch, anyway) do NOT follow D&C 132, so why would ANY of them be referred to?

455 posted on 10/01/2009 3:59:57 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 433 | View Replies]

To: DelphiUser
 
Joseph smith was a prophet of God, when moved upon by the spirit, he could and should pronounce judgments on creeds and religions that espouse them.
 
 
Like THIS 'revelation'??

 
THE
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
SECTION 132
 
Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, recorded July 12, 1843, relating to the new and everlasting covenant, including the eternity of the marriage covenant, as also plurality of wives. HC 5: 501–507. Although the revelation was recorded in 1843, it is evident from the historical records that the doctrines and principles involved in this revelation had been known by the Prophet since 1831.
1–6, Exaltation is gained through the new and everlasting covenant; 7–14, The terms and conditions of that covenant are set forth; 15–20, Celestial marriage and a continuation of the family unit enable men to become gods; 21–25, The strait and narrow way that leads to eternal lives; 26–27, Law given relative to blasphemy against the Holy Ghost; 28–39, Promises of eternal increase and exaltation made to prophets and saints in all ages; 40–47, Joseph Smith is given the power to bind and seal on earth and in heaven; 48–50, The Lord seals upon him his exaltation; 51–57, Emma Smith is counseled to be faithful and true; 58–66, Laws governing the plurality of wives are set forth.
 

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines—

2 Behold, and lo, I am the Lord thy God, and will answer thee as touching this matter.

3 Therefore, prepare thy heart to receive and obey the instructions which I am about to give unto you; for all those who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same.

4 For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye dammed; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.

5 For all who will have a blessing at my hands shall abide the law which was appointed for that blessing, and the conditions thereof, as were instituted from before the foundation of the world.

6 And as pertaining to the new and everlasting covenant, it was instituted for the fullness of my glory; and he that receiveth a fullness thereof must and shall abide the law, or he shall be damned, saith the Lord God.

7 And verily I say unto you, that the conditions of this law are these: All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, of him who is anointed, both as well for time and for all eternity, and that too most holy, by revelation and commandment through the medium of mine anointed, whom I have appointed on the earth to hold this power (and I have appointed unto my servant Joseph to hold this power in the last days, and there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred), are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead.

8 Behold, mine house is a house of order, saith the Lord God, and not a house of confusion.

9 Will I accept of an offering, saith the Lord, that is not made in my name?

10 Or will I receive at your hands that which I have not appointed?

11 And will I appoint unto you, saith the Lord, except it be by law, even as I and my Father ordained unto you, before the world was?

12 I am the Lord thy God; and I give unto you this commandment—that no man shall come unto the Father but by me or by my word, which is my law, saith the Lord.

13 And everything that is in the world, whether it be ordained of men, by thrones, or principalities, or powers, or things of name, whatsoever they may be, that are not by me or by my word, saith the Lord, shall be thrown down, and shall not remain after men are dead, neither in nor after the resurrection, saith the Lord your God.

14 For whatsoever things remain are by me; and whatsoever things are not by me shall be shaken and destroyed.

15 Therefore, if a man marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by me nor by my word, and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world and she with him, their covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead, and when they are out of the world; therefore, they are not bound by any law when they are out of the world.

16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.

17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.

18 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity, if that covenant is not by me or by my word, which is my law, and is not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, through him whom I have anointed and appointed unto this power, then it is not valid neither of force when they are out of the world, because they are not joined by me, saith the Lord, neither by my word; when they are out of the world it cannot be received there, because the angels and the gods are appointed there, by whom they cannot pass; they cannot, therefore, inherit my glory; for my house is a house of order, saith the Lord God.

19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fullness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.

20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have call power, and the angels are subject unto them.

21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my law ye cannot attain to this glory.

22 For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me.

23 But if ye receive me in the world, then shall ye know me, and shall receive your exaltation; that where I am ye shall be also.

24 This is eternal lives—to know the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath sent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law.

25 Broad is the gate, and wide the way that leadeth to the deaths; and many there are that go in thereat, because they receive me not, neither do they abide in my law.

26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God.

27 The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be dammed, saith the Lord.

28 I am the Lord thy God, and will give unto thee the law of my Holy Priesthood, as was ordained by me and my Father before the world was.

29 Abraham received all things, whatsoever he received, by revelation and commandment, by my word, saith the Lord, and hath entered into his exaltation and sitteth upon his throne.

30 Abraham received promises concerning his seed, and of the fruit of his loins—from whose loins ye are, namely, my servant Joseph—which were to continue so long as they were in the world; and as touching Abraham and his seed, out of the world they should continue; both in the world and out of the world should they continue as innumerable as the stars; or, if ye were to count the sand upon the seashore ye could not number them.

31 This promise is yours also, because ye are of Abraham, and the promise was made unto Abraham; and by this law is the continuation of the works of my Father, wherein he glorifieth himself.

32 Go ye, therefore, and do the works of Abraham; enter ye into my law and ye shall be saved.

33 But if ye enter not into my law ye cannot receive the promise of my Father, which he made unto Abraham.

34 God commanded Abraham, and Sarah gave Hagar to Abraham to wife. And why did she do it? Because this was the law; and from Hagar sprang many people. This, therefore, was fulfilling, among other things, the promises.

35 Was Abraham, therefore, under condemnation? Verily I say unto you, Nay; for I, the Lord, commanded it.

36 Abraham was commanded to offer his son Isaac; nevertheless, it was written: Thou shalt not kill. Abraham, however, did not refuse, and it was accounted unto him for righteousness.

37 Abraham received concubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law; as Isaac also and Jacob did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods.

38 David also received many wives and concubines, and also Solomon and Moses my servants, as also many others of my servants, from the beginning of creation until this time; and in nothing did they sin save in those things which they received not of me.

39 David’s wives and concubines were given unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the keys of this power; and in none of these things did he sin against me save in the case of Uriah and his wife; and, therefore he hath fallen from his exaltation, and received his portion; and he shall not inherit them out of the world, for I gave them unto another, saith the Lord.

40 I am the Lord thy God, and I gave unto thee, my servant Joseph, an appointment, and restore all things. Ask what ye will, and it shall be given unto you according to my word.

41 And as ye have asked concerning adultery, verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man receiveth a wife in the new and everlasting covenant, and if she be with another man, and I have not appointed unto her by the holy anointing, she hath committed adultery and shall be destroyed.

42 If she be not in the new and everlasting covenant, and she be with another man, she has committed adultery.

43 And if her husband be with another woman, and he was under a avow, he hath broken his vow and hath committed adultery.

44 And if she hath not committed adultery, but is innocent and hath not broken her vow, and she knoweth it, and I reveal it unto you, my servant Joseph, then shall you have power, by the power of my Holy Priesthood, to take her and give her unto him that hath not committed adultery but hath been faithful; for he shall be made ruler over many.

45 For I have conferred upon you the keys and power of the priesthood, wherein I restore all things, and make known unto you all things in due time.

46 And verily, verily, I say unto you, that whatsoever you seal on earth shall be sealed in heaven; and whatsoever you bind on earth, in my name and by my word, saith the Lord, it shall be eternally bound in the heavens; and whosesoever sins you remit on earth shall be remitted eternally in the heavens; and whosesoever sins you retain on earth shall be retained in heaven.

47 And again, verily I say, whomsoever you bless I will bless, and whomsoever you curse I will curse, saith the Lord; for I, the Lord, am thy God.

48 And again, verily I say unto you, my servant Joseph, that whatsoever you give on earth, and to whomsoever you give any one on earth, by my word and according to my law, it shall be visited with blessings and not cursings, and with my power, saith the Lord, and shall be without condemnation on earth and in heaven.

49 For I am the Lord thy God, and will be with thee even unto the bend of the world, and through all eternity; for verily I seal upon you your exaltation, and prepare a throne for you in the kingdom of my Father, with Abraham your father.

50 Behold, I have seen your sacrifices, and will forgive all your sins; I have seen your sacrifices in obedience to that which I have told you. Go, therefore, and I make a way for your escape, as I accepted the offering of Abraham of his son Isaac.

51 Verily, I say unto you: A commandment I give unto mine handmaid, Emma Smith, your wife, whom I have given unto you, that she stay herself and partake not of that which I commanded you to offer unto her; for I did it, saith the Lord, to prove you all, as I did Abraham, and that I might require an offering at your hand, by covenant and sacrifice.

52 And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, receive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God.

53 For I am the Lord thy God, and ye shall obey my voice; and I give unto my servant Joseph that he shall be made ruler over many things; for he hath been faithful over a few things, and from henceforth I will strengthen him.

54 And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and cleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law.

55 But if she will not abide this commandment, then shall my servant Joseph do all things for her, even as he hath said; and I will bless him and multiply him and give unto him an hundredfold in this world, of fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, wives and children, and crowns of eternal lives in the eternal worlds.

56 And again, verily I say, let mine handmaid forgive my servant Joseph his trespasses; and then shall she be forgiven her trespasses, wherein she has trespassed against me; and I, the Lord thy God, will bless her, and multiply her, and make her heart to rejoice.

57 And again, I say, let not my servant Joseph put his property out of his hands, lest an enemy come and destroy him; for Satan seeketh to destroy; for I am the Lord thy God, and he is my servant; and behold, and lo, I am with him, as I was with Abraham, thy father, even unto his exaltation and glory.

58 Now, as touching the law of the priesthood, there are many things pertaining thereunto.

59 Verily, if a man be called of my Father, as was Aaron, by mine own voice, and by the voice of him that sent me, and I have endowed him with the keys of the power of this priesthood, if he do anything in my name, and according to my law and by my word, he will not commit sin, and I will justify him.

60 Let no one, therefore, set on my servant Joseph; for I will justify him; for he shall do the sacrifice which I require at his hands for his transgressions, saith the Lord your God.

61 And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood—if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.

62 And if he have ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore is he justified.

63 But if one or either of the ten virgins, after she is espoused, shall be with another man, she has committed adultery, and shall be destroyed; for they are given unto him to multiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfill the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be glorified.

64 And again, verily, verily, I say unto you, if any man have a wife, who holds the keys of this power, and he teaches unto her the law of my priesthood, as pertaining to these things, then shall she believe and administer unto him, or she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord your God; for I will destroy her; for I will magnify my name upon all those who receive and abide in my law.

65 Therefore, it shall be lawful in me, if she receive not this law, for him to receive all things whatsoever I, the Lord his God, will give unto him, because she did not believe and administer unto him according to my word; and she then becomes the transgressor; and he is exempt from the law of Sarah, who administered unto Abraham according to the law when I commanded Abraham to take Hagar to wife.

66 And now, as pertaining to this law, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will reveal more unto you, hereafter; therefore, let this suffice for the present. Behold, I am Alpha and Omega. Amen.


 
 
 

456 posted on 10/01/2009 4:02:19 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 436 | View Replies]

To: DelphiUser
I have some friends who are Calvinists, they kept trying to talk to me about becoming a Calvinist, finally, I told them it was not god's will for me to be a Calvinist, or i already would be one, besides, since man (according to my understanding of their beliefs) lost his free will when Adam was kicked out of the garden, they were talking to the wrong person, they needed to be praying to Gods about my soul, not talking to me.
 
 
Son; it sure SOUNDS like you ARE a Calvinist!


457 posted on 10/01/2009 4:04:22 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 436 | View Replies]

To: DelphiUser
I've read the teachings of the prophet Joseph smith, the Bible, and many other books, so?

It appears that RETENTION is a bit lacking. The BIBLE needs to be re-read and stay away from 'official' LDS 'teachings' for a while.


There are always many who can prophesy, but when it comes to a prophet leading his church, God only chooses one prophet at a time.

1 Kings 19:14-18
14. He replied, "I have been very zealous for the LORD God Almighty. The Israelites have rejected your covenant, broken down your altars, and put your prophets to death with the sword. I am the only one left, and now they are trying to kill me too."
15. The LORD said to him, "Go back the way you came, and go to the Desert of Damascus. When you get there, anoint Hazael king over Aram.
16. Also, anoint Jehu son of Nimshi king over Israel, and anoint Elisha son of Shaphat from Abel Meholah to succeed you as prophet.
17. Jehu will put to death any who escape the sword of Hazael, and Elisha will put to death any who escape the sword of Jehu.
18. Yet I reserve seven thousand in Israel--all whose knees have not bowed down to Baal and all whose mouths have not kissed him."

458 posted on 10/01/2009 4:11:46 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 436 | View Replies]

To: DelphiUser
There are always many who can prophesy, but when it comes to a prophet leading his church, God only chooses one prophet at a time.


That can be a bit confusing; eh?


 
So many 'prophets' - who to believe!
 


"We do not indorse the teachings of any so-called Mormons or Latter Day Saints, which are in conflict with the gospel of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, as taught in the New Testament and the Book of Mormon. They have departed in a great measure from the faith of the Church of Christ as it was first established, by heeding revelations given through Joseph Smith, who, after being called of God to translate his sacred word--the Book of Mormon--drifted into many errors and gave many revelations to introduce doctrines, ordinances and offices in the church, which are in conflict with Christ's teachings."

-- David Whitmer (an elder in the Church of Christ), 1887

 

Today, there are as many as 100 organizations claiming to be a part of the Latter Day Saint movement, most centered in Utah or Missouri. Most regard their own group, however small, to be the only legitimate Christian church. Most of these organizations are very small, but overall, but the second largest denomination, the Community of Christ, reports over 200,000 members.

Just a sampling...........

  • The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (a.k.a. The Church of Jesus Christ, and the LDS) is by far the largest Mormon denomination. It is a continuation of the "Rocky Mountain Saint" branch of Mormonism.
  • The more liberal Community of Christ (formerly called the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) is second in size. It is a continuation of the "Prairie Saint" movement. Although generally referred to as "Mormons," they do not use the term themselves, because of its association with polygamy and because they believe the name was not part of the original church.
  • Many additional small Mormon faith groups, including:
    • Aaronic Order: unknown membership; 6 centers; 20 ministers
    • Apostolic United Brethren: about 7,000 members. They disagree with the LDS' decision to allow ordination of African-Americans and allowing women to assume leadership positions.
    • Church of Christ (Fetting/Bronson): about 2000 members
    • Church of Christ (Temple Lot): about 2400 members
    • The Church of Christ "With The Elijah Message," established anew in 1929 12,500 members worldwide
    • Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonite): about 2700 members
    • The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: about 11 million members
    • The Community of Christ: about 250,000 members. This denomination was formerly known as the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints -- the "RLDS Church". It was formed in 1860 by remnants of the original church who did not make the trek to Utah. They reject certain beliefs and practices of the LDS church, including marriage sealing for eternity; they allow both men and women into the priesthood; their services are open to the public. They have about 250,000 members.
    • United Order Effort: a polygamy practicing group, excommunicated by the main LDS church,  of perhaps 10,000 members
    • The Restoration Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. It split from the Reorganized Church in 1991 because of the latter's liberal theology. It is centered in Independence, Missouri, and had an estimated membership of 2,500 in mid-1996. They publish a periodical "The Restoration Advocate" six times a year.
 
And the LATEST in the news: FUNDAMENTALIST Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

459 posted on 10/01/2009 4:14:07 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 436 | View Replies]

To: DelphiUser
IMHO You are purposefully obtuse here, but hey that's your prerogative.

Things like this happen when hangin' with MORMON folks for a while; one picks up their thought pattern.

460 posted on 10/01/2009 4:16:04 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 437 | View Replies]

To: DelphiUser
Yeah, just one thing, he's not a Mormon, he's an anti Mormon... Just thought you'd want to know.

Well... I want to know LOTS of stuff, but information seems to be holding back these days.

I drop my request for wanting to know how JS "learned'... for the info on HOW one 'knows' that the fellow is an ANTI??

Was it something he's SAID or DONE?

461 posted on 10/01/2009 4:18:56 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 438 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian
 

The Lds church in 2007 publications is still ensuring that 1994 Ensign quotes like this one from Lds President Howard W. Hunter gets full play -- first inserting words from a praise hymn to Joseph Smith in the Mormon hymnal directly prior to Hunter's words so that a full hymnal context could not be lost upon the reader:


 
 
Praise to the Man!
 
 
Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah!
Jesus annointed that Prophet and Seer.
Blessed to open the last dispensation,
Kings shall extol him, and nations revere.

Chorus
Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven!
Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain.
Mingling with Gods, he can plan for his brethren;
Death cannot conquer the hero again.
 
 

Praise to his mem'ry, he died as a martyr;
Honored and blest be his ever great name!
Long shall his blood, which was shed by assasins,
Plead unto heav'n while the earth lauds his fame.

Chorus
Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven!
Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain.
Mingling with Gods, he can plan for his brethren;
Death cannot conquer the hero again.

 

Great is his glory and endless his priesthood.
Ever and ever the keys he will hold.
Faithful and true he will enter his kingdom,
Crowned in the midst of the prophets of old.

Chorus
Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven!
Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain.
Mingling with Gods, he can plan for his brethren;
Death cannot conquer the hero again.

 

Sacrifice brings forth the blessings of heaven;
Earth must atone for the blood of that man.
Wake up the world for the conflict of justice.
Millions shall know 'Brother Joseph' again.
 
Chorus
Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven!
Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain.
Mingling with
Gods
, he can plan for his brethren;
Death cannot conquer the hero again.

462 posted on 10/01/2009 4:22:08 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 446 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian
(I just don't get it; perhaps you can unravel this Mormon maze for me?)

Twisty little passages: all different...

463 posted on 10/01/2009 4:23:57 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 448 | View Replies]

To: Elsie
I guess THIS fellow was a PROPHET; too!

 



1890: Manifesto (a statement denouncing polygamy)

"Inasmuch as laws have been enacted by Congress forbidding plural marriage...I hereby declare my intention to submit to those laws..."

~ Wilford Woodruff, 4th LDS President




 
 
Too bad it did NOT make it as SCRIPTURE!!
 
 
Oh; WAIT!
 
It DID!!

464 posted on 10/01/2009 4:27:24 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 456 | View Replies]

To: Elsie

mormonic placemarker with little gold horn


465 posted on 10/01/2009 5:58:56 AM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 464 | View Replies]

To: aMorePerfectUnion
Welcome to the ongoing discussion with members
of the cult of mormonism. It is an amazing journey.

Thank you for the welcome, but I've been here before. I know what is going on.

466 posted on 10/01/2009 6:12:31 AM PDT by ShadowAce (Linux -- The Ultimate Windows Service Pack)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 368 | View Replies]

To: DelphiUser
You say potato, and I say 'tater.

I said nothing. I merely pointed out that all the translations translate the KJV word "Godhead" into "divine nature"

If you don't like it, take it up with Scripture. Scripture is not opinion.

467 posted on 10/01/2009 6:14:38 AM PDT by ShadowAce (Linux -- The Ultimate Windows Service Pack)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 369 | View Replies]

To: ShadowAce
Scripture is not opinion.

Well for us, yes.

For some even the comment that water is wet or the Earth is round is a matter of opinion...

468 posted on 10/01/2009 6:51:02 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (There's something socialist in the neighborhood, who ya gonna call? MITTBUSTERS!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 467 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian

Mormon maze
____________________________________

Mormon maze, mormon mice...

It fits ...


469 posted on 10/01/2009 8:01:22 AM PDT by Tennessee Nana
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 448 | View Replies]

To: ShadowAce
“Scripture is not opinion”

True. But the interpretation thereof often is. Why do you think Christianity can't all agree on some of the most basic fundamentals of the gospel such as faith vs. works, women in the priesthood, heaven & hell, & most recently gays in the priesthood, etc., etc.?

If you have THE truth, if you belong to THE true church of God, please share it w/ all of us & show definitively why your opinion of the truth is correct & other Christians are so wrong.

470 posted on 10/01/2009 8:33:28 AM PDT by Reno232
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 467 | View Replies]

To: Reno232
If you have THE truth, if you belong to THE true church of God, please share it w/ all of us ...

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. (Acts 16:31)

The other points you mentioned are not fundamentals, but doctrine. It doesn't matter (really) what "level" you are, how "mature" you are as a Christian. What matters is that you are on the right road, going in the right direction. Your position on that road doesn't matter.

471 posted on 10/01/2009 8:40:46 AM PDT by ShadowAce (Linux -- The Ultimate Windows Service Pack)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 470 | View Replies]

To: ShadowAce
I'm not sure you really answered my question, but I appreciate your opinion. Have a good one FRiend.
472 posted on 10/01/2009 8:53:18 AM PDT by Reno232
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 471 | View Replies]

To: Reno232
I'm not sure you really answered my question,...

I'm sorry. I thought I did....

Have a good one FRiend.

You too.

473 posted on 10/01/2009 8:55:03 AM PDT by ShadowAce (Linux -- The Ultimate Windows Service Pack)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 472 | View Replies]

To: Reno232
It doesn't matter (really) what "level" you are, how "mature" you are as a Christian.

I guess I oughta clarify that one. It doesn't matter what denomination you are, either--as long as you believe on the Lord Jesus for salvation.

Baptist, Presbyterians, Methodist, etc. The differences are mainly doctrinal, not fundamental.

Personally, I'm not a member of any of those. I'm non-denominational.

474 posted on 10/01/2009 8:57:48 AM PDT by ShadowAce (Linux -- The Ultimate Windows Service Pack)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 472 | View Replies]

To: ShadowAce; Reno232

ShadowAce, I thought you did too.

Reno -

Faith. Where do you place your faith. Is it in Christ? Or is it in the works and ordinances of your organization. Be careful. It is THE most important question.

None of us who are Christian on this thread share a common denomination (that I know of), yet we all walk the same path - the path of faith in Christ, period. Some of us may stumble upon the pebble that is called “women in authority,” or “gays who continue to lead while continuing in sin.” Yet we all have the same goal of Christ to reach on that path.

You my friend Reno, are on a different path. In Mormonism the goal is in your own exaltation. The goal is eternal family. The goal is in authority and judgment. Put your eyes on Christ, your faith that HE saves you and to be in Him is all you ever need - He fulfills your every desire. All the rest of our man-made confusion is a stumbling stone - it causes one to take your eyes off Him who is the end of the path. Instead you focus on your own two feet and where they are leading you. Self focus is a sin.

Do you see the difference?


475 posted on 10/01/2009 9:10:50 AM PDT by colorcountry (A faith without truth is not true faith.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 473 | View Replies]

To: DelphiUser; ShadowAce
It does not mean what you have stated it to mean.

You are correct in pointing out incorrect interpretation and usage of "Godhead"
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

First "dwell" (katoikeō)which means to inhabit, dwell within.
"all the fullness" (pas plērōma) all - the totality, everything, to its fullness, completely filled.
"Godhead/Deity" (theotēs) the state of being God.

Du will dance around trying to obscure that mormonism is polytheistic, but this verse does not support polytheism, particularly where the mormon committee called the 'godhead' is concerned. The greek here makes it very clear that everything, in its totality that is God resides within Jesus. A mormon god with flesh and bone cannot reside at the same time within another body of flesh and bone (according to mormon definition of what a god is). This passage, even out of context, denies mormon polytheism. However, within context, it does even greater damage. 1:15 Jesus is the exact image of God (not a three headed committee). 1:16-17 Jesus created ALL things, Jesus is not our 'spirit brother' but God.
In Col 1:19 ¶ For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell; - all divine power resides in Christ. The Greek word translated "dwell" (katoikesai) means to dwell permanently. That is difficult for a flesh and bone 'god' to accomplish who is part of a committee.

Please tell me where the definition of the Trinity shows up in one place in the scriptures. You can't the Trinity is an interpretation of the scriptures.

mormons will be unable to tell you where in the bible there are the mormon temple ordinances, word of wisdom, and a plethora of other mormon doctrines. That the bible is consistent in refering to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit - though three as collectively as the singular God - within the context of Jewish monotheism.

This is why it's so disingenuous for antis (and I mean of every religion, not just of mine) to try to tear down another religion that has a differing interpretation from theirs.

This is called projecting. 50,000 mormon missionaries go out each day and tear down other religions. In fact, the lds church has legacy of bashing Christians and Christianity. What is often opposed here is the fact that correct biblical interpretation and understanding are used here to counter mormon counterfeits and deliberate redefinitions of words and phrases - as you correctly identified by the incorrect mormon definition of 'Godhead'.

Don't go out in public and challenge them to prove their interpretation, don't call them sinners and damn them to Hell. They just have another interpretation than you.

Again, mormonism is dishonest in making this appeal against counter-mormon prosletizing. Again, that is what their missionaries do every single day. Lurkers can clearly see the hyprocracy of the statement.

Give it a rest, Jesus does not want contention among the people who believe on his name, quite the reverse, in spite of our differences in interpretation of the Bible, all Christians should get along as well as the different factions of say the Buddhists.

Mormon prophets, as recently as the late Hinkley, have made it very clear that

"In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints 'do not believe in the traditional Christ.' 'No, I don't. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. . . . (Prophet Gordon B. Hinckley, LDS Church News, June 20, 1998, p.7). Thank you prophet hinkley for making it clear that you worship a different Jesus - and by doing such incures God's wrath -

Gal 1:6 ¶ I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

476 posted on 10/01/2009 9:11:11 AM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 369 | View Replies]

To: DelphiUser; svcw
Please show where Joseph Smith was in either of my definitions as equal to Jesus Christ...

He may have you there svcw, smith himself said he was greater than Jesus was, not equal.

477 posted on 10/01/2009 9:13:30 AM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 378 | View Replies]

To: DelphiUser; greyfoxx39; Elsie
If you can't see the difference between missionary work and the specific targeting of a religion to hound, then I can't make you see it either.

"...all the priests who adhere to the sectarian religions of the day with all their followers, without one exception, receive their portion with the devil and his angels." - Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr. , The Elders Journal, v. 1, no. 4, p. 60

Nah, not joey specifically targeting a religion to hound. . .

"Christians—those poor, miserable priests brother Brigham was speaking about—some of them are the biggest whoremasters there are on the earth, and at the same time preaching righteousness to the children of men. The poor devils, they could not get up here and preach an oral discourse, to save themselves from hell; they are preaching their fathers' sermons —preaching sermons that were written a hundred years before they were born. ...You may get a Methodist priest to pour water on you, or sprinkle it on you, and baptize you face foremost, or lay you down the other way, and whatever mode you please, and you will be damned with your priest. - Apostle Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, v. 5, p. 89

What, some other 'christian' group attacking Christians, say it is not so mormons.

“... all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ.... in large part the worship of apostate Christendom is performed in ignorance, as much so as was the worship of the Athenians who bowed the Unknown Gods.” - Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, pp. 269, 374-375. Sorry to info you Elsie - mormonism still calls you an apostate, even though you were never a mormon.

478 posted on 10/01/2009 9:20:18 AM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 384 | View Replies]

To: Godzilla

You are correct. Man, I messed that up didn’t I. Thanks for setting me straight.


479 posted on 10/01/2009 9:21:06 AM PDT by svcw (Legalism reinforces self-righteousness - it communicates to you the good news of your own goodness)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 477 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian
CF: Are you serious?

Yes, but I joke around a lot too.

CF: You think pre-Gutenberg printed records will drop out of the sky, or be dug up etched in golden plates in Hill Cumorahs all over the world?

Luke 18:26-27
26 And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved?
27 And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.
The problem is, we have been commanded, I don't know how, I don't need to know everything, I just know I'm supposed to get started, so I have. My family has four lines back to Adam, once you get to Noah, it's pretty easy.

You will say this is an impossible task, I will quote 1 Nephi 3:7
7 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.
You question my seriousness and my sanity because you are thinking "arm of the flesh" how are you going to do this. I move forward in faith saying God knows how I will do this thing he has commanded me to do, therefore, I will start, he'll tell me what I need to know when I need to know it.

CF: Now what's wrong with this statement?
(1) It negates Hebrews 9:27 "For it is appointed for man to die once, and then the judgement"
(2) It creates a false sense of security for earthly man: "Oh, I can repent AFTER I die"
(3) In light of what I said above -- the vast majority of Dark Ages & before will never have their records found, how can the Lds church turn around and say this is MANDATED for EVERY spirit before they can be judged? Joseph Smith taught that "ALL those who have not had an opportunity of hearing the Gospel, and being administered unto by an inspired man in the flesh, MUST have it hereafter, BEFORE they can be finally judged. (Lds Presidents book on Smith, p. 471)
(4) Lds assume not only can they arrange eternal relationships with God and Jesus Christ post-death, but they can do marital match-making for the deceased. (Someone cue the Halloween Morg music): "In the temple, we can perform ALL the ordinances necessary for the exaltation of those who have died. This includes temple marriage." (Official Lds teaching pub -- Gospel Principles, p. 248) [Yeah, all: Think of The Addams family performing ghoulish eternal wedding rituals for the dead]
(5) It treats mere men as "saviors" -- what Reaganaut just noted in what you said: WOW. Finally an admittance that they consider themselves to be Saviors, just like their prophets taught.


Hebrews 9:27 does not say how long afterwords, nor that it is immediate. It says "After". Revelations 20:7-15 explained the time frame a bit better:
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Let's pay close attention to the time-line here, The thousand years of Satan's imprisonment on earth are over, so that's what we Mormons call the millennium and then everyone is judged. By Jesus (not Joseph, he's testifying, so is everyone for that matter) Hell gives up her dead. what exactly does that mean? it means Hell is not forever, why then you might ask is it called eternal punishment? It is called eternal punishment because it is God's punishment and one of his name, you guessed it is Eternal. That's why as I mentioned earlier in this thread David could say "Thou wilt not leave my soul in Hell" because he understood this doctrine.

Now you have asked about records and claimed that we can never perform all the work, also in verse twelve, it talks about Books of records being kept in Heaven. If you have modern day revelation, there is always a way to get a record. also important, is that the dead will be judged "according to their works". Hey, it's in the Bible, I didn't write it, don't shoot the messenger, it's in the Bible.

next point, the Devil's charge card, you know, sin now, pay later? It's a really bad plan because the interest is a killer. How exactly do you for example kick a drug addiction that you developed with a body and now you are a spirit with all the same cravings? You want to know what hell is? It's people trying to repent now that they are dead of stuff they did while they were alive. I'm not sure it's not possible, but it's definitely the hard row to hoe.

Last point, everyone here who is trying to teach others to come to Christ, even the antis who think they are helping me, or other Mormons, by damning us to hell and trying to shock us out of our faith, are trying to be saviors. The Good Samaritan, was a savior. the guy who stops by the side of the road to help with a flat tire is a savior. A savior saves, from trouble, form sin, from ignorance. there is on one Savior, the Savior is Jesus Christ, we are not confused, we don't think we are him, we need him just as much, maybe more sometimes, than those we are trying to help. You guys are tying to make us trying to be like Jesus into a bad thing. IT just is silly, and it show a lack of reasonableness that is not going to win you many "saved" souls.

then you cut a bunch of stuff out of context. We are indeed the only church that knows how to perform proxy baptisms, will that wash away the sins of those dead who died with a sinful heart? No. It will allow those who lived a just life and never knew the gospel to accept the ordinance and move forward into God's rest. We know how to confirm, by proxy, the dead into Jesus' church, allowing those worthy souls who are otherwise damned to move forward yet again. We are again the only church who understand these ordinances, why wouldn't we be called the saviors of the dead? are we not allowing them to as verses 12 and 13 say be judged according to their works, and not according to the ordinances that were available to them? "Orthodox Christianity" would damn all who died without the opportunity to be baptized to hell.

Antis of all faiths try to present their doctrines as "weird" or as "opposing the Bible" with Mormonism it should be easy, we have the Book of Mormon for crying out loud. You should be able to find places where out doctrines just are unsupportable form anywhere int he Bible, and you can't or at least have not. IMHO if I were a non member, the thing that would be most amazing to me is how many of our doctrines a) make sense b) are supported, just in scriptures I hadn't read or thought about before.

I've got a busy day today, I'll try to respond to everybody (It's hard to be popular sometimes...) but if I don't get back to you for a while, don't be offended.
480 posted on 10/01/2009 9:23:36 AM PDT by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 439 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian; DelphiUser; greyfoxx39
Hey ya gotta admit we aren't just saying "everyone else can go to Hell", we are doing something about it, and trying to save as many as will let us.

You don't bother to read your own doctrine?
ALMA 34:33-35:". . . if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.”
Seems your doctrine is in conflict - you cannot baptise to 'save' someone where in Alma they are in the final state of the wicked

481 posted on 10/01/2009 9:27:28 AM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 409 | View Replies]

To: DelphiUser; Colofornian; greyfoxx39
. . . The Temple ceremonies are absolutely published by the church, canonized too, . .

Oh, so you've now added to the mormon canon? Show us where in the Bible, bom, D&C or POGP these ceremonies are "absolutely published".

482 posted on 10/01/2009 9:30:44 AM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 425 | View Replies]

To: colorcountry; Reno232; ShadowAce

Now that I think of it, my story was stupid. We who are Christians have already reached our goal of Christ. But He has numbered our steps and set us a path. Our own human foibles and sin cause us to stumble upon those pebbles while we live out our eternal lives on Christ’s path. Someday (soon I hope) He will come and ultimately save us from our stumbling and groping, but we are already with Him.


483 posted on 10/01/2009 9:30:51 AM PDT by colorcountry (A faith without truth is not true faith.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 475 | View Replies]

To: reaganaut
Reminds me of the guy who stands outside the SLC temple in his temple clothing telling people that they should try to be “as good as or better than Jesus”.

Ah yes, the man in white, who claims to be better than Jesus.

484 posted on 10/01/2009 9:32:52 AM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 432 | View Replies]

To: DelphiUser; reaganaut
Yeah, just one thing, he's not a Mormon, he's an anti Mormon... Just thought you'd want to know.

Classical tactic of personal destruction. Nick is a a sincere, believing latter-day saint. . . . . Nick has a steadfast testimony of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the only true church, of the Book of Mormon as the word of God, as Joseph Smith as a true prophet. He believes LDS doctrine, as he testifies,"100 percent".

But really, slandering another mormon just because he is embarrassing? My, how mormonism is so accepting.

485 posted on 10/01/2009 9:41:17 AM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 438 | View Replies]

To: DelphiUser; Elsie; Colofornian
It means that Joseph as the first prophet of this dispensation will testify that the gospel was being taught and those who did not accept it will be condemned by his testimony that they had it available.

In Non-non-mormon speak, Joseph Smith will be the one to "certify" the worthiness to enter....and THAT means in order to reach "exaltation" one MUST be made "worthy" by taking part in mormon temple ordinances.

Photobucket

"those who did not accept it will be condemned by his testimony that they had it available."

486 posted on 10/01/2009 9:43:27 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (ObaMugabe is turning this country into another Zimbabwe as fast as he can with media's help.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 426 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian; DelphiUser; reaganaut
how many "saviors" do you believe there are?

Who was Jesus' savior? How about heavenly father - did he have a savior too? For according to Lorenzo Snow, “As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become.” , we are sinners, that makes heavenly father a sinner too, and his father before him and so forth.

487 posted on 10/01/2009 9:46:23 AM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 441 | View Replies]

To: ShadowAce; Reno232
If you have THE truth, if you belong to THE true church of God, please share it w/ all of us & show definitively why your opinion of the truth is correct & other Christians are so wrong.

Time for this graphic apparently.

NOT

Proclaiming to be the TRUE church of God does NOT make it so, no matter how many mormons holler it at the top of their voices across history and across the world.

When mormons can produce truth that does not depend on the words of false prophet Joseph Smith, perhaps THAT will be the time for them to challenge Christians to produce THEIR truth.

488 posted on 10/01/2009 10:01:33 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (ObaMugabe is turning this country into another Zimbabwe as fast as he can with media's help.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 470 | View Replies]

To: colorcountry
Question for you CC. Are those preachers that preach & practice homosexuality & fornication, thus leading their followers away from the doctrines of Christ & what the Lord described as abominations, saved, even though they are Christians & “believe”?

If you believe so, why did the Lord even institute the Commandments? Why did Paul go to the Corinthians & set them straight on the doctrines, something he thought was imperative, instead of just visiting them & saying, well, you've got the doctrines a little screwed up, but hey, you believe in the Lord, so don't worry about it.

And then of course, we could talk about the dozens of scriptures that talk about the principle of “faith without WORKS is dead”.

Anyway, hope all is well w/ you CC.

489 posted on 10/01/2009 10:03:22 AM PDT by Reno232
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 475 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian; DelphiUser
DU: Nope, no fit, the resurrection is a free gift, Atonement is something you have to keep the commandments for, it's all clear to me, because it's all been explained by the church and confirmed by the Holy Ghost.

The resurrection was a given at the start. It was going to happen regardless of Christ. What did change is what the resurrection will lead to:

Act 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Readers will note here there are only two options listed here - smoking or non-smoking. The scriptures are clear - the unjust go to hell. The just to heaven - there is no mormononic segregation here. Do some word searches, the bible only speaks of two things - just/unjust, salvation/condemnation, etc.

Atonement is something you have to keep the commandments for, it's all clear to me, because it's all been explained by the church and confirmed by the Holy Ghost.

Mormon 'atonement' means you are a debtor to Jesus and are being forced to pay Him back for His sacrifice on the cross. They take the gift and make it something that has to be earned or payed back. Common sense check, if you are given a gift that you have to pay for - is that a gift? For mormons, grace is irrelevant, as are any biblical injunctions to the contrary.

DU, knowing your own sins that "make [you] unclean and unfit to dwell in God's presence" -- have you performed up to the standard of 2 Nephi 25:23? Have you done EVERYTHING you can do relationally, spiritually, emotionally, physically? Everything? Everything?

Have you done “all” you can do for salvation?
“For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.”—James 2:10

Have you achieved perfection “in this mortal life”?
Men and women who live in mortality and who have heard the gospel here have had their day, their seventy years to put their lives in harmony, to perform the ordinances, to repent and to perfect their lives.” —The Miracle of Forgiveness, pp. 8, 314

Have you repeated a sin after asking for forgiveness?
“By this ye may know if a man repenteth of his sins —behold, he will confess them and forsake them.” —Doctrine and Covenants, Section 58:43

Have you cleared “all ungodliness” out of your life?
“Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you,,/u> that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ.…” —Moroni 10:32
“And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven.…Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.” —Alma 11:37

In light of those last two verses DU, unless you are perfectly sinless this very moment with absolutely no ungodliness in your life, then even grace and salvation are denied to you.

490 posted on 10/01/2009 10:09:50 AM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 442 | View Replies]

To: greyfoxx39

Actually GF, we depend on the words of the Lord. We study, ponder those studies, & then take it to the Lord for confirmation. It kills me how you folks are so set against going to the Lord to ask what He thinks. Rather, you seem content to rely on your own wisdom to try & figure this all out.

Seems like a rather flawed strategy to me. In the Bible, the Lord asked us to pray to him for answers. Sounds good to me. I did & received answers, just like He said He would. Why complicate it more than that? Is it because the “just believe” mantra is far easier? Are you seeking for truth, or ease? The Lord never said it would be easy, it would just be worth it.

We don’t believe in the words of Joseph Smith any more than we do the words of Moses, Abraham, Isaiah, Peter, Paul, etc. Do you believe the words of the prophets in the Bible? Is there any mention whatsoever in the Bible that the Lord never call a prophet again?

As usual lately, not enough time to continue. My best to you & yours GF.


491 posted on 10/01/2009 10:19:56 AM PDT by Reno232
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 488 | View Replies]

To: Reno232; ShadowAce; reaganaut
It kills me how you folks are so set against going to the Lord to ask what He thinks.
In the Bible, the Lord asked us to pray to him for answers. Sounds good to me. I did & received answers, just like He said He would. Why complicate it more than that?

It seems that your question to ShadowAce was more "complicated" than that.

It kills me that you mormons seem to believe that you are the only ones who pray to the Lord for answers...(and AGAIN I note that a mormon can't seem to capitalize the pronoun when speaking of the Lord or Jesus).

Is it because mormons disdain the prayers to God that do not produce the results that fit the template that Joseph Smith is a true prophet and the BOM is the word of God?

492 posted on 10/01/2009 10:29:02 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (ObaMugabe is turning this country into another Zimbabwe as fast as he can with media's help.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 491 | View Replies]

To: Reno232
Are those preachers that preach & practice homosexuality & fornication, thus leading their followers away from the doctrines of Christ & what the Lord described as abominations, saved, even though they are Christians & “believe”?

Yes, they are in error and need to be corrected. Are they saved? I do not know, but all indication tells me that they are not. Not all who profess to be in Christ are. God judges the heart. These supposed “leaders” are not. There are however, foolish people who will follow these “leaders” just as it says in scripture. We are warned to keep our eyes open to these men....

Jude 1:12 These are the men who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted;Jude 1:13 wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever. (NASB ©1995)

and...

2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: 10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. 11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. 12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; 13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; 14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: 15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.

17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. 18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

They remind me of certain others I know who profess to be “prophets” yet lead others into sins of adultery, polygamy, self-focused works and self-glorification. I think you know who I am talking about. ;)

And then of course, we could talk about the dozens of scriptures that talk about the principle of “faith without WORKS is dead”.

I read it as “FAITH without works is dead”. Faith comes first. With faith comes salvation. Then follows the good works that comes through Christ Jesus....just as scripture tells us.

“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.”

493 posted on 10/01/2009 10:33:31 AM PDT by colorcountry (A faith without truth is not true faith.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 489 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian; DelphiUser
So, so true comments and observations C

I realized that I had allowed you to make me angry, I was angry because I had begun to expect honesty from you and you disappointed me, I Gave you too much credit. So, I took a couple of days to respond. I still think that what you said is unconscionable, I think that this poster says a lot about the information you posted [DU]
Note, Godzilla, that DU's accusation of "I had begun to expect honesty from you and you disappointed me... is essentially a comment from the chip off the old false prophet:

I would be angry too if I had to defend the undefendable actions lies and deceptions of smith in regards to polygamy. He has, as a man, to answer to His God. BUT the problem, the heresy, the abomination, was Joseph used God’s name to justify all of this. mormonism embraces a man who did not hesitate to use God’s name to justify ANYTHING.

494 posted on 10/01/2009 10:34:23 AM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 446 | View Replies]

To: Godzilla
BUT the problem, the heresy, the abomination, was Joseph used God’s name to justify all of this. mormonism embraces (and glorifies) a man who did not hesitate to use God’s name to justify ANYTHING.

Bears repeating.

495 posted on 10/01/2009 10:48:01 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (ObaMugabe is turning this country into another Zimbabwe as fast as he can with media's help.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 494 | View Replies]

To: Reno232; ShadowAce
Why do you think Christianity can't all agree on some of the most basic fundamentals of the gospel such as faith vs. works, women in the priesthood, heaven & hell, & most recently gays in the priesthood, etc., etc.?

Lets rephrase this:

Why do you think Christianitymormonism can't all agree on some of the most basic fundamentals of the gospel such as polygamy . FLDS are better mormons than mainline mormons in this respect.

women in the priesthood. The Community of Christ now ordains women to the priesthood, whats the matter with mainline lds? Are they waiting for another lawsuit like in 1978?

most recently gays in the priesthood

Yes, what about gay mormons in the priesthood?

496 posted on 10/01/2009 10:49:55 AM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 470 | View Replies]

To: Reno232; greyfoxx39
We don’t believe in the words of Joseph Smith any more than we do the words of Moses, Abraham, Isaiah, Peter, Paul, etc.

Interesting statement in view that just about every mormon 'testimony' I've read or heard defacto relies more upon the words of smith than any before him. You know, believe the bom to be true and smith is a prophet, etc. That is also counter to your own articles of faith that discounts the bible where convinent for you "as correctly translated".

Do you believe the words of the prophets in the Bible? Is there any mention whatsoever in the Bible that the Lord never call a prophet again?

Were the Lord to call a prophet again, that prophet would be subject to the same standards that have been applied to prophets in the bible. One can examine smith's life and clearly see that smith not only fails the biblical test for a prophet, but does so miserably.

497 posted on 10/01/2009 10:57:00 AM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 491 | View Replies]

To: Godzilla

Link doesn’t seem to work.


498 posted on 10/01/2009 10:58:42 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (ObaMugabe is turning this country into another Zimbabwe as fast as he can with media's help.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 496 | View Replies]

To: greyfoxx39; Reno232
Link doesn’t seem to work.

Try this one.

499 posted on 10/01/2009 11:02:15 AM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 498 | View Replies]

To: Godzilla; DelphiUser; reaganaut
Who was Jesus' savior? How about heavenly father - did he have a savior too? For according to Lorenzo Snow, “As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become.” , we are sinners, that makes heavenly father a sinner too, and his father before him and so forth.

Yes. What exactly did Joseph Smith mean when he implied Jesus laid down His life and died like God the Father did?

DU, do you believe Heavenly Father died? (Was the cover of one of those news magazines right in the 60s when they claimed God died? Were they just off time-wise?)

The Scriptures inform us that Jesus said, As the Father hath power in Himself, even so hath the Son power--to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious--in a manner to lay down His body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe? If you do not believe it, you do not believe the Bible. The Scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 346)

Now, DU, when I've asked you these kind of questions before, I usually get two types of apologetic veins in your responses:

(a) You usually claim, "Well, that's non Mormon canon."

Of course, in this instance that'd be hilarious. I mean, here we have Joseph Smith...
...going on public record,
....saying Do you believe? If you do not believe it, you do not believe the Bible. The Scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it."
-- and if you try that vein on this Smith comment, well, that'd be funny to no end...
...Smith calling upon "...all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it" -- the spiritual weaponry of all weapons
-- and you come up to Smith with your pee-shooter and say to him, "Joseph, what you said is not canonized Scripture. We can simply ignore your ignoramus comments like this."

(b) DU, the second pattern you have is to always accuse people of taking comments out of context. [The Lds church takes comments all the time from its leaders & publishes them in books...of course, they NEVER take anything out of context...one-way aspersion-casting]

Well, in light of your interest in context...here's what Smith was essentially saying leading up to the above excerpt...actually very interesting comments for lurkers who don't know a lot about Mormonism:

King Follett sermon excerpts:

#1 Smith badgers other religious teachers because he thinks they're ignorant about God: But if all religious teachers were honest enough to renounce their pretensions to godliness when their ignorance of the knowledge of God is made manifest, they will all be as badly off as I am, at any rate; and you might as well take the lives of other false teachers as that of mine, if I am false. (p. 344)

#2 Smith defends the right to be a false prophet:
Every man has a natural, and, in our country, a constitutional right to be a false prophet, as well as a true prophet. (p. 344)

#3 Smith comes back & labels 99% of professing religious ministers as false teachers: If I show, verily, that I have the truth of God, and show that ninety-nine out of every hundred professing religious ministers are false teachers, having no authority, while they pretend to hold the keys of God's kingdom on earth, and was to kill them because they are false teachers, it would deluge the whole world with blood. I will prove that the world is wrong by showing what God is. (pp. 344-345)

#4 Smith creates out of thin air an understanding of God as a glorified man : I will go back to the beginning before the world was, to show what kind of a being God is. What sort of a being was God in the beginning?...God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. (p. 345)

#5 Smith claims to know how God got bumped unto in the godhood category: ...I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and suppoed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. (P. 345)

#6 See above quote about Heavenly Father DYING (p. 346)

#7 Post-statement context - Smith advocates godhood for the Mormon masses: ...you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves. (p. 346)

#8 Smith tells people how to become 'gods' -- well, just go the same route as Heavenly Father did: ...be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. And I want you to know that God, in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming his name, is not trifling with you or me. (pp. 346-347)

Boy, ya gotta wonder about Joe Smith. It's almost like some supernatural personage whispered in his ear: "Hey, I'm not trifling with you or others any longer. You know very well that all people will be resurrected. So come join us. We want you to be 'able to dwell in everlasting burnings' with us."

Why, DU, you can almost hear the serpent's hiss in that statement.

Lurkers: Mormon History Lesson #666: The King Follett sermon was one of the most major changes in Mormon teaching -- a sermon Smith gave months before he died.

Smith claimed in the #8 excerpt above that God the Heavenly Father was once simply a "small degree" man who acted in a "small capacity". Boy, that certainly takes the cake. Think of all the daddy stories where a father tells his son or daughter, "When you grow up you can be President of the United States."

Then fast forward to the Mormon curricula for Family Home Evenings on Monday nights: "Son, when you grow up you can be a god. Now you're just a 'small degree' person with 'small capacity.' But 'you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves..."

I think of all the "Mormons are nice" comments you hear from folks; yet, these people don't quite fathom that Mormon parents take it quite seriously in converting their homes into cottage-industry god factories!

DU, it's so funny you've railed against the Trinity in this thread when on post #84 you said, "Jesus is my only god" when Mormonism teaches rampant polytheism!!! [The belief that many gods exist]

Why is this "funny?" Because you've reversed the divine order: God is a diversity of persons in one Divine Being; yet you appear to have One Divine Being ("Jesus is my only god") within a diversity of Divine Personages!!! [Heavenly Father; the Holy Ghost; Abraham -- D&C 132:29,37 claims Abraham is now "exalted" -- Mormon code for godhood-- and sits upon a throne in eternity, etc.]

500 posted on 10/01/2009 11:02:36 AM PDT by Colofornian
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 487 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-50 ... 401-450451-500501-550 ... 601-603 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson