your rabid clique
I predict a thread closing
devotee of the UDDER FANTASY
Fantasy?
Posted on 11/17/2009 6:46:44 AM PST by topcat54
The doomsday film 2012 had a mega-weekend at the box office. It took in $225 million over a period of five days, a combination of $65 million domestically and $160 million internationally Wednesday through Sunday (Nov. 11–16, 2009). In anticipation of the hype and hysteria of the Mayan Calendar end-of-the-world scenario, Christians had their books ready for an answer. Mark Hitchcock, pastor of Faith Bible Church in Edmond, Oklahoma, is the author of 2012: The Bible and the End of the World. To his credit, Hitchcock offers a critical evaluation of the supposed Mayan prophecy. He even takes issue with the often used argument that the fig tree in Matthew 24:32 describes the reinstitution of the nation of Israel,[1] a point he made in his The Complete Book of Bible Prophecy.[2] In an interview for Christianity Today , Hitchcock said, “It’s the eschatology of the New Age. It’s basically a mystical, New Age belief system that I believe is spiritual deception. I want to take 2012 and bend the curve to God’s purposes, and use this as a springboard to tell people what the Bible says.”
Tim LaHaye, co-author of the multivolume, multimillion, multi-bestseller Left Behind series, offers a similar evaluation. He “believes the 2012 mania is distracting people from what the Bible predicts regarding the Rapture, Tribulation and Second Coming. ‘The date has been picked up by so many groups and cults that you have to conclude that someone or something inspired all these writers to come to essentially the same period—and that would be divination or spiritism,’ LaHaye says. ‘It’s probably satanic because there is nothing in the Bible about it. In fact, the Bible forbids us to even think about a day and an hour.’” But as we’ll see, it’s OK to think about what generation will see prophecy unfold.
I find all of this kind of funny. Now the dispensational prophetic sensationalists have to compete with the crazy New Agers and secular fright mongers. How many decades have we had to endure predictions of an imminent end from Hal Lindsey, Tim LaHaye, Jerry Falwell, and many others? Falwell (1933–2007) stated on a December 27, 1992, television broadcast, “I do not believe there will be another millennium . . . or another century.” He was wrong. John F. Walvoord, described as “the world’s foremost interpreter of biblical prophecy . . . [expected] the Rapture to occur in his own lifetime.’”[3] It didn’t. Walvoord died in 2002 at the age of 92.These men claim to reject specific date setting, but they have no trouble and see nothing wrong with identifying the last generation. But even in this, their track record has been dismal, and yet they want respect from the non-believing world when they speak on Bible prophecy. For example, in his first edition of The Beginning of the End, which was published in 1972, Tim LaHaye wrote,
“Carefully putting all this together, we now recognize this strategic generation. It is the generation that ‘sees’ the four-part sign of verse 7 [in Matt. 24], or the people who saw the First World War. We must be careful here not to become dogmatic, but it would seem that these people are witnesses to the events, not necessarily participants in them. That would suggest they were at least old enough to understand the events of 1914–1918, not necessarily old enough to go to war.”[4]
A number of things changed in the 1991 revised edition. The “strategic generation” has been modified significantly. It’s no longer “the people who saw the First World War,” it’s now “the generation that ‘sees’ the events of 1948.”
“Carefully putting all this together, we now recognize this strategic generation. It is the generation that ‘sees’ the events of 1948. We must be careful here not to become dogmatic, but it would seem that these people are witnesses to the events, not necessarily participants in them. That would suggest they were at least old enough to understand the events of 1948.”[5]
The change from the years of the First World War to the specific date of 1948 as the starting point for the beginning of the generation that LaHaye claims will be alive when the “rapture” supposedly takes place was not made because of anything the Bible says on the subject. The generation that Jesus had in view in the Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24, Mark 13, Luke 21) was the generation of His day. The phrase “this generation” always refers to the generation to whom Jesus was speaking. (For a study of this claim, see Last Days Madness and Is Jesus Coming Soon?) Time was running out for the First World War generation in 1991 when the revised edition of The Beginning of the End was published so LaHaye changed the date to 1948 even though the 40-year generation year of 1988 had passed.[6] LaHaye did not offer justification for the change, and he did not tell those who picked up the new edition that he had made the change.
You will notice in the Christianity Today article that those quoted decry date setting, but some don’t seem to have a problem identifying what generation will be the “last generation.” Here’s how LaHaye explains it: “I refuse to set any date limits, for the Lord didn’t, but he did specify a generation’s experiences and said that he would return during that period. We are in the twilight of that generation—that I firmly believe.”[7] He wrote this nearly 20 years ago! Moreover, Hal Lindsey and Chuck Smith, who made some very definite predictions about “last generation” (that it would end with a “rapture” no later than 1988), seem to get a pass by their fellow dispensationalists who claim to condemn date setting (also see here). Consider this interview that LaHaye had with Larry King on June 19, 2000:
LaHaye: But I think another reason people are interested in [Left Behind ] . . . is because it talks about the future. We’re living at a time when people look at the future and think of it as rather precarious. In fact, there’s a popular book out a couple of years ago on the death of history,[8] and it’s not from a Christian perspective. And so people recognize that something is about to happen. And the Bible has a fantastically optimistic view of the future.King: But weren’t people saying this in 1890 and 1790? “It’s coming. Boy, the apocalypse is coming. The end is near.” They’ve always been saying it.
LaHaye: Well, we have more reason to believe that. Until Israel went back into the promised land, we couldn’t really claim that the end times were coming. But ever since 1948, in subsequent years, we’ve realized that things are getting set up. It’s stage setting for these momentous events.
King: Do you believe that some sort of end is coming?
LaHaye: Yes.
King: You believe that that will happen?
LaHaye: In fact, I believe there are a number of signs in Scripture that indicate it’s going to come pretty soon. We say maybe within our lifetime.
King is right. Making predictions has been the stock and trade of prophecy writers like LaHaye. Of course, they don’t pick a specific date, but they use words like “pretty soon” and “within our lifetime.” If they didn’t make these concessions, their books would not sell. LaHaye’s co-author Jerry Jenkins even wrote a book with the title Soon: The Beginning of the End (2003). Not to be outdone, LaHaye has teamed with Craig Parshall to publish Edge of Apocalypse, an apocalyptic novel “with political intrigue ripped from today’s headlines, the first book in a new series called The End.” Don’t these guys know when to stop? Like those who are attracted to the prophecies of Nostradamus and the Mayan calendar, there is a steady stream of gullible Christians who know nothing about the failed predictions of some of their favorite Christian prophecy writers but are willing to shell out money for prophecy books that in the ned fail to deliver.
New Testament scholar Ben Witherington writes, “The Mayans no more knew when the end would come than anyone else does. It’s time for theological weather forecasting to be given up entirely. Even TV weathermen predicting ordinary events are more accurate.” And this includes the “we know the generation” prophecy writers like LaHaye, Jenkins, Hitchcock, and Parshall.
Endnotes:
[1] Tim LaHaye and many popular prophecy writers see Matthew 24:32 as the key NT prophetic passage: “when a fig tree is used symbolically in Scripture, it usually refers to the nation Israel. If that is a valid assumption (and we believe it is), then when Israel officially became a nation in 1948, that was the ‘sign’ of Matthew 24:1-8, the beginning ‘birth pangs’—it meant that the ‘end of the age’ is ‘near.’” (Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins, Are We Living in the End Times? Current Events Foretold in Scripture . . . And What They Mean [Wheaton, IL: Tyndale House Publishers, 1999], 57). The editors of LaHaye’s own Prophecy Study Bible (2000) disagree: “the fig tree is not symbolic of the nation of Israel” (1040).
[2] Mark Hitchcock, The Complete Book of Bible Prophecy (Wheaton, IL: Tyndale House Publishers, 1999), 158. Hitchcock follows the lead of John F. Walvoord: The fig tree representing Israel "is not so used in the Bible. . . . Accordingly, while this interpretation is held by many, there is no clear scriptural warrant. A better interpretation is that Christ was using a natural illustration.” (John F. Walvoord, Matthew: Thy Kingdom Come [Chicago, IL: Moody, (1974) 1980], 191–192).
[3] Quoted in Kenneth L. Woodward, “The Final Days are Here Again,” Newsweek (March 18, 1991), 55.
[4] Tim LaHaye, The Beginning of the End (Wheaton, IL: Tyndale House Publishers, 1972), 165, 168. Emphasis added.
[5] Tim LaHaye, The Beginning of the End, rev. ed. (Wheaton, IL: Tyndale House Publishers, 1991), 193. Emphasis added.
[6] Hal Lindsey, The Late Great Planet Earth (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1970), 53–54.
[7] LaHaye, The Beginning of the End, rev. ed., 194.
[8] Francis Fukuyama, The End of History and the Last Man (New York: The Free Press, 1992).
It is sooooooooooooooooooo
welcome when you say things that are
100% Biblically WRONG.
It really helps cast your clique’s REPLACEMENTARIAN, preterist, a-mil, post mil perspective in the proper light.
Thanks BIG.
1. For that brazenly false statement to be true, the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION would have already had to have taken place.
2. The two witnesses would have already appeared and lain dead in the streets of Jerusalem for 3 days IN VIEW OF THE WHOLE WORLD.
3. The Mark of The Beast would have had to have been implemented over the WHOLE WORLD.
etc. etc. etc.
It’s such a riot when the lunacy of the REPLACEMENTARIANS et al is so clearly presented by their own foolishness.
Actually, there is a good argument to be made for the fulfillment of the abomination of desolation in the acts of Antioches Epiphanes when he killed a pig on the altar in Jerusalem. Thus, it would be fulfilled.
The mark of the beast may be fulfilled as well.
NOT AT ALL.
1. Does not fit the Scriptural prediction at all.
2. Was not after Israel had been dispersed and brought again to the land of Israel.
3. Was not the world leader Anti-Christ’s image set up in the Holiy of Holies.
#############
THE MARK OF THE BEAST:
1. Absolutely NO WAY was there any sort of mark that made it IMPOSSIBLE to buy or sell if one did not have it compared to the ID CHIP IMPLANT waiting close in the wings.
2. NO WAY WAS ANY MARK applied to every person of every nation over the whole planet.
####################
Both assertions are off the wall wrong.
Wrong to Scripture.
Wrong to history.
Worse, they damnably mislead people about the times we are in.
On the dispersal issued I agree-and the proponents of that theory agree as well, since Jesus was warning His own generation to get out of Jerusalem when they started to see the wrath of God fall upon it.
Then WHY ON EARTH do they still propound an obviously untrue theory?
First, because the historic view is postmillenial - it is what drove the Pilgrims here to begin the “New Jerusalem.”
Second, because the church was weakened dramatically and lost its influence in culture since the date setting gained prevalence.
Dispensationalism has been traced all the way back to the 1st century.
########
I still don’t understand why “Christians” would propound a clearly false theory as fact.
Hair-brained rationalizations just don’t cut it for me.
It sounds like you are telling me that social forces decided truth for a bunch of people.
I’m not feeling any of the Chesed of Yah'shua in these comments. I sense the hypocrite monster at work.
We as followers of the Christ are required to recognize the "signs" of the times starting in Matthew 24:32 discussing the Fig Tree.
Anyone who suggests a date for Christ’s return is a false teacher. That we know for sure.
Start by turning away from counter-reformation Jesuits. Rav Sha'ul's charge to Timothy
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
NAsbU 2 Timothy 4:1 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:
May you find Yah'shua in His Word.
2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.
“Dispensationalism has been traced all the way back to the 1st century.”
Please substantiate that.
“It sounds like you are telling me that social forces decided truth for a bunch of people.”
Using the same logic, the Westminster and LBC of 1689 catechisms are social forces.
The dispensational issues have been cited hereon before.
I’m sure you can find good sites that do so.
Perhaps some on the list will care to bother.
I’ve been there and done that enough, it has no attractiveness for me . . . particularly on a teaching day.
I gather you have no real answer as to why “Christians” would still propound a theory they know to be false.
Sure, just like mine. I wasn’t actually there when you were abducted by aliens. Just holding out the possibility.
Please substantiate that.
He can’t. Just be careful when he starts waving his arms about to make you think he has an answer.
It’s just another FUTURIST FANTASY!!
Didn’t sound like that kind of wording to me.
(TC) "Anyone who suggests a date for Christ’s return is a false teacher. That we know for sure."
How in the world does one come to the conclusion that recognizing the "signs" of the times is suggesting a date for Christ's return is beyond me. Geezz..
Let's look at Scripture.
1 Peter 1:10,11
10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you,
11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. (emphasis mine)
We see clearly in Scripture that the prophets of old inquired and searched out what manner of time the Spirit of Christ was indicating when He testified of things to come! We have the example of these prophets that we are to seek out the season the Spirit is speaking about regarding the last days. Let's read the words of Paul.
1 Thessalonians 5:1-4
But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. (emphasis mine)
We are not in darkness, the Day of the LORD is not to overtake us as a thief. This is because we are AWARE of the times and seasons the Spirit speaks of through the Word of the LORD.
Yah'shua went through great lengths to educate His disciples of the times and seasons, and to prepare them. To disregard the Scriptures and the words of our Savior is horrific and utter folly.
Pray for the peace of Jerusalem.
Shalom
Actually, that sounds like one of your clique’s fantasies.
Look, there's one behind you . . . BOOO!
lol
your rabid clique
I predict a thread closing
devotee of the UDDER FANTASY
Fantasy?
INDEED.
It’s so persistently fascinating when y’all fail to
STOP DIGGING
and have no awareness of the realities involved.
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