Can Catholics Be Christians?

The Orthodox Presbyterian Church ^

[HarleyD]

Who else would God let us nag with our scriptural references if not for our Roman Catholic friends? :O)

[Petronski]

Problem with that is that we see the results of that played out in hundreds, if not thousands of competing denominations...

Say "thirty thousand." It drives some folks absolutely crazy...

[Mad Dawg]

Now you are not paying attention to the dogma itself but only to a part of it.

It is by the grace of Christ and the “merits” of His passion that Mary is made sinless. Christ is just as necessary to protect her from sin BEFORE she committed one as He is to protect me from sin after I have committed many.

You gotta read the actual relevant parts of the offishul declaration. Your argument was, in fact, one of the reasons the Dogma was not declared for so long. But then people began to think about how the effects and benefits of the “Work of Christ” are applied in time, and the problem melted away.

[Mad Dawg]

LOL!

Hey! Mysterious are the ways of Divine Providence! All that time memorizing citations and stuff, and he graciously provides us!

God is merciful — and economical!

[Sir_Ed]

No, He didn’t, as He gave Adam free will and Adam chose to sin.

God won’t violate His own precepts. Adam sinned, and we are his progeny, all sinners needing salvation, even Mary.

Ed

[Ann Archy]

Hell is a LOT warmer......oh well...it;s your soul. How long have you been a Catholic?? Didn;t they teach you about Holy Days of OBLIGATION??

[Petronski]

Here we see a glorious work of Christian iconography:

Salus Populi Romani, meaning Protectress (literally "Health") of the Roman People is the title given in the 19th century to the Byzantine icon of the Madonna and Child, reputed to date to Early Christian times, in the Borghese or Pauline Chapel of the Santa Maria Maggiore Basilica in Rome.

wikilink

When the "salus" in "salus populi romani" is translated as "savior" rather than "health," some protestant folks absolutely get the vapors.

The point of the title "salus populi roman" is to supplant pointless worship of a pagan goddess by that name.

No, don't look to some moldy pagan goddess to watch over you, turn instead to the Mother of God, Blessed Mary Ever Virgin.

[Sir_Ed]

I ask people who can hear me to pray for me, by letter, email, phone or personal conversation, but I don’t close my eyes and ask my sister 50 miles away to pray for me, and I don’t close my eyes and ask Benjamin Franklin or Silas to pray for me, as neither my 50 miles away sister, nor Ben Franklin or Silas can hear me.

Ed

[don-o]

I’ve seen lists - it’s been a while since I went looking, as my participation on the Religion forum is rare. Yet this one attracted my attention.

SSDD.

For anyone who cares, I am an Orthodox Christian (convert) with a growing love and respect for my Catholic brethern and sistren.

The Protty fulminations just deja vu the hell out of me. Been there. Done all that and worse, big time. Got humble, honest and desperate. Prayed like a dying man and looked at the facts.

The “solas” fell pretty easily, once I got some historical perspective. The claims of Rome vs Constantinople vs Canterbury were a bit stickier. I made the choice I made.

fwiw

[Sir_Ed]

God won’t violate His own precepts. He told Adam the penalty for sin was death, He’s not going to magically say some are sinners, some aren’t, else Christ’s death wouldn’t have been necessary.

Ed

[Earthdweller]

Mother Catholic, father Protestant here. Personally don't see a big difference in the belief system. The big difference was always political and rather shallow if you ask me.

My reason for becoming a Protestant was simply a practical one. I learned about Christ much more on my own. I had too much difficulty learning about Christ running through all of the Catholic bureaucracy and hierarchy.

I believe both Protestants and Catholics are Christians.

[Mad Dawg]

If we’re going to use the vision analogy, myopia might be more apposite than blindness.

That is because the near sighted cannot make fine distinctions in the things they see at any distance. And the distinctions ranging from latria/hyper-dulia/dulia are not VERY subtle, but they are somewhat subtle.

Tomorrow I will go to the doctor to ask for his help in throwing off whatever is troubling me. I will also ask God for help, and I may ask for the intercession of St. Blaise, as I have already asked for the intercession of some of my friends. Which of these requests would the Protestants consider to be worship, I wonder.

I would know that I meant quite a different thing when I spoke to God from what I meant when I spoke to my friends, here or in heaven, or to the doctor. There might not be a very clear visible difference, though I don’t kneel much either to docs or to my friends here. I don’t kneel all that much to Dominic, and have never knelt to St. Blaise.

But it’s all foolishness. Unless one’s intellectual vision is capable of a certain fineness of resolution, a certain delicacy of distinction, what Catholics say will seem to have no concrete referent.

I remember when I used to fence with the foil. At first I couldn’t see what was going on in the matches I watched. After a while I “got my eye in,” and could see and understand the course of the duel much more accurately. It’s not surprising that those whose world system which is virtually binary would not be prepared to perceive shading and gradations.

[bonfire]

Her ya go:

Pope Benedict XVI in front of a 19th century shrine in Pompeii, near Naples, southern Italy, Sunday, 19 Oct. 2008. Benedict XVI traveled to a shrine near the ruins of ancient Pompeii on Sunday and prayed for all people in pain or difficulty, saying faith can promote personal and social recovery. (AP Photo/Gregorio Borgia)
. Here is the indulgenced text (written by Bl. Bartolo Longo), to recite at noon:

PETITION TO OUR LADY OF THE ROSARY OF POMPEII

In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.

I.
O august Queen of victories, Virgin who reignest in paradise, whose mighty name causes heaven to rejoice and hell to tremble, o glorious Queen of the most holy Rosary, we, thy happy children chosen by thy goodness in this century to build thee a temple at Pompeii, kneeling at thy feet on this solemn day to commemorate thy latest triumphs on the spot where idols and demons were formerly worshipped, we pour out with tears the feelings of our hearts and with a filial confidence lay before thee our miseries.

From that throne of mercy where thou sittest as Queen, o Mary, turn down thy pitiful eyes on us, on our families, on Italy, on Europe, and the whole Church; take into pity the afflictions which overwhelm us and the cares which embitter our life. Thou seest, o Mother, how many dangers of soul and body, how many calamities and afflictions press upon us.

O Mother, keep back the arm of justice of thy indignant Son, and conquer by thy mercy the hearts of sinners, since they are our brethren and thy children, redeemed through the blood of our sweet Jesus and through the wounds of thy most tender heart pierced with the sword. Show thyself to all in this day, as thou art, the Queen of peace and mercy.

Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of mercy,...
- Vouchsafe that I may praise thee, o sacred Virgin.
- Give me strength against thy enemies.
- Pray for us, Queen of the most holy Rosary,
- That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.

II.
It is but too true that we, although thy children, are the first who crucify Jesus in our hearts and wound anew thy heart by our sins. We confess it, we deserve the severest chastisements; yet remember how thou didst receive, on the top of Golgotha, the last drops of that divine blood, and the testament of our dying Redeemer. And this testament of a God, sealed with the blood of a Man-God, appointed thee our Mother, the Mother of sinners. Thus, as our Mother, thou art our Advocate and our Hope. To thee, amidst sighs, do we lift up our hands, crying for mercy!

Have pity, good mother, have pity on us, on our souls, on our families, on our relations, on our friends, on our departed brethren, above all, on our enemies, and on so many who claim the name of Christians, yet wound the loving heart of thy Son. Pity, o Mother, we now implore thee for pity on the erring nations, on all Europe, on the whole world, that they may repair repentant to thy heart. Be merciful to all, o Mother of mercy.

Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of mercy,...
- Vouchsafe that I may praise thee, o sacred Virgin.
- Give me strength against thy enemies.
- Pray for us, Queen of the most holy Rosary,
- That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.

III.
What does it cost thee, o Mary, to hear us? What does it cost thee to save us? Did not Jesus entrust to thy hands all the treasures of his graces and mercies? Thou sittest as Queen at the right hand of thy Son, crowned with immortal glory, above all the choirs of angels. Thou extendest thy dominion as far as the heavens expand, the earth and all the creatures that people it are subject to thee. Thy power even reaches hell; and thou alone, o Mary, canst rescue us from the devil’s grasp. Thou art almighty by grace, and therefore thou canst save us. Now if you sayest thou wilIest not help us because we are ungrateful children and unworthy of thy protection, tell us at least to whom shall we have recourse in order to be released from so many evils? Oh! No, thy maternal heart will never bear to see the ruin of thy children. The divine Child we behold on thy knees, the mystical crown we admire in thy hand, both inspire us with hope that we will be heard. And full of confidence in thee, we throw ourselves at thy feet, we trust ourselves as feeble children into the arms of the tenderest amongst mothers and today, this very day, we expect from thee the graces we are longing for.

Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of mercy,...
- Vouchsafe that I may praise thee, o sacred Virgin.
- Give me strength against thy enemies.
- Pray for us, Queen of the most holy Rosary,
- That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.

Let us ask Mary for her blessing

We now ask of thee, o Queen, a last favor which thou canst not refuse on this solemn day. Grant to all of us thy constant love and in a special manner thy maternal blessing. No, we will not leave thy feet today nor cease clasping thy knees till thou hast blessed us. Bless now, o Mary, the sovereign Pontiff: to the first laurels of thy crown, to the ancient trophies of the Rosary, whence thou art called Queen of victories, add also this one, o Mother, grant triumph to religion and peace to mankind. Bless our bishop, the priests and particularly those who promote the honor of thy Sanctuary; bless finally all those who are associated to thy new temple of Pompeii and who practice and spread devotion to thy most holy rosary .

O blessed rosary of Mary, sweet chain which unites us to God, bond of love, which connects us with the angels, tower of safety against the assaults of hell, sure harbor in the universal shipwreck, never more shall we part with thee; thou shall be our comfort in the hour of agony: to thee the last kiss of our life; and the last word of our dying lips shall be thy sweet name, o Queen of the Rosary of Valle di Pompei. Mother dear, only refuge of sinners, supreme comforter of the afflicted, blessed be thy name, now and forever, on earth and in heaven. Amen.

Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of mercy,...
- Vouchsafe that I may praise thee, o sacred Virgin.
- Give me strength against thy enemies.
- Pray for us, Queen of the most holy Rosary,
- That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.

[netmilsmom]

Hey wait.
The only time I’ve seen the word “Salus” was in this phrase.

“From the cross comes salvation” = A cruce salus

Why would it be translated as “health” when it is “salvation” in the phrase above?

[Sir_Ed]

My best to you with regard to the doctor, Mad Dawg.

I was quite sick for the longest of times with a horrible lung infection and constant coughing and lungs burning.

I don’t think it was swine flu, as I didn’t have a fever or nausea, but it took forever and a day to go away.

I’ll pray for ya’, as will the others here, I’m sure.

Take care,

Ed

[netmilsmom]

>>He’s not going to magically say some are sinners, some aren’t<<

Not some, one.
The one who shared His Son’s DNA.

You said “couldn’t”.
Why “couldn’t” He?

Because YOU believe so? God can do anything He wants.
Don’t underestimate him to suit your fancy.

[Quix]

I feel quite similarly.

Though I confess . . . enjoying sometimes tweaking both super dearly beloved and the merely dearly beloved.

LOL.

[Sir_Ed]

I’m not, it just is un-Biblical and runs contrary to the plain teaching of the Bible.

Ed

[Quix]

I am, however,

keenly aware that a number of the more rabid types hereon seem to be unable to fathom disagreeing stridently and even fiercely with someone re theological etc. matters

WITHOUT

hating the person.

At some point, that has to be between them and The Lord.

He knows my heart better than even I do. Thankfully, He knows THE WORK

HE

HAS DONE IN IT.

[Quix]

Would you label or rate that post full of

a 1 white Mary Hanky of sweetness or

a 2 white Mary Hanky’s of sweetness or

a 3 white Mary Hanky’s of sweetness or

a 4 white Mary Hanky’s of sweetness or

a 5 white Mary Hanky’s of sweetness

post?