Posted on 12/10/2009 9:49:46 AM PST by Alex Murphy
BATULAO, Batangas, Philippines — It was a heartbreaking 60th birthday for visionary Emma De Guzman when in the early morning of Tuesday, December 8, she chose not to deliver the message from the Virgin Mary unlike so many other times in the past.
Close to 5,000 pilgrims joined the trek up the Mountain of Salvation in Batulao, to some observers possibly the biggest delegation to join in the prayers and support of the apparition of the Blessed Virgin to Emma.
Emma’s journey from plain overseas Filipino nanny in Canada to visionary exhibiting mystical phenomena like stigmata, bilocation, levitation, the gift of healing, unexplainable ability to write in ancient Greek, and the most popular manifestation, glitters or escarchas on her face, started in 1986.
Her simple untutored ways coupled with extraordinary faculties gained her hordes of foreign followers from the La Pieta International prayer group from Canada, the United States, and some European countries where she was better known than in her own hometown.
In 2004, Emma came to the Mountain of Salvation to share her vision with her countrymen and has been coming twice yearly, on September 8 and December 8, the Feast of the Immaculate Conception.
Message for Filipinos
The followers grew from 300 to a thousand with devotees praying the rosary and hearing mass from noon to midnight, when the Virgin would normally appear to Emma and leave her with a message for the Filipino people.
Throughout the years, the message has always stressed that God had chosen the Philippines to carry on the evangelization in Asia, being the only Christian nation in the region.
Last September, Emma reported that the Virgin told her that God loves the Filipinos and will protect the country from all its problems. There was a statement that something will occur in 2010 generally interpreted as election-related, but from 2011 to 2016 the country will experience great prosperity.
Tuesday started encouragingly. The weather was dry and balmy unlike her last visit in September which was muddy and stormy. Seven priests led by Bishop Ramon Arguelles of Lipa and Fr. Dennis Paez said Mass. Familiar supporters like Bill Pote, Brenda Padilla, Andrea Limpo, Rica Limcaoco, Danny and Gigi Rodriguez, Arlina Onglao’s Journeys of Faith, and a busload of pilgrims from Guam attended the vigil.
When glitters started appearing on Emma’s face, a signal for the apparition, Emma began sobbing loudly and bitterly. After a few minutes, Fr. Paez announced that Emma was not ready to share the message of the Virgin Mary, and that it was time for the pilgrims to leave the premises. Nothing like this had happened in the past.
As the pilgrims trekked down the hill at 2:30 in the morning, they knew in their hearts that God was angry about the Maguindanao travesty. It was a sad day for Emma and the Filipino people.
I would “lol” right back at you, but it is no laughing matter.
Our Lady of Guadalupe is no laughing matter, that much is certain.
Half-baked attempts to smear her as a fraud, though, are laughably pathetic.
The various evidences and claims have been well covered on these pages, and elsewhere, previously.
Your own one-liner claims that the bulk of evidences against, are "half baked" are just that, themselves. Your attempts to smear others whom hold views opposed to your own, are typical of most all your posts on this forum.
Please stop making this personal.
(I knew that. It’s just that I know a knock knock joke not suitable for the Religion forum, so when I saw “Emma” just kind of sitting there by herself, I had to get silly.)
Stunning, isn't it. Thanks for your persistence in apologetics. It's truly admirable.
Whenever anything like this happens, they can only talk with their Bishop.
Not to worry about it.
“The Catholic Church loves the top-down authority”
On the contrary; the Catholic Church is very much an advocate of the law of subsidiarity-—especially when it comes to a need for disciplinary action or any resolution regarding visionaries.
You wrote:
“Whatever it takes for you to understand that Rome, the Vatican, the Catholic Church (or whatever moniker you wish to give it) is a self-aggrandizing cult.”
I’ll tell you what it would take. Provide actual proof of what you claim - FOR ONCE AT LEAST. Look at post #21. Can you answer those questions yet?
If the questions had anything to do with the discussion, I would answer them. But, the tragedy is this kind of diversionary tactic is used not to move the discussion forward, but to obfuscate. Stick to the point. The RCC has a mystical (not spiritual) bent toward the kind of visions and apparitions that give rise to these errors. Witness all of the claims about "stigmata" and "cheetos" and mary in the pancake. These don't arise from biblical Christians, but RCs. Even Santeria is simply the mystical elements of RC and Voodoo blended together. There is just so much similarity that the pagans practising one, add the other.
The Scriptures do not support crossing yourself, although that has become a "sign" RCs use if they ever encounter a dead person or something shocking. As if this act can protect them against something. Similarly, the rosary is a chanted concoction of repetitious words which Jesus specifically warned against, "And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetiton as the Gentiles do, for they suppose they will be heard for their many words" Matt. 6:7
This is not anti-Catholic. It is anti-error, and the Catholic Church just happens to traffic in error. The same should be said for half of the so-called "Protestant" churches. Some "spirit-filled" groups are nothing more than wild emotional binges and have little to do with sound doctrine. Certainly, they are not teaching what the Apostles taught. But, in this particular area, this matter of "visions" of Mary and other "Saints", the guilt for this error lies with Rome. Our Lady of Fatima and falsehoods like this have set the tone for the average Catholic such that, instead of understanding the Scriptures and salvation by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ, they look to these nonsensical appartions as "connection". Rome should repent, if it can.
You wrote:
“If the questions had anything to do with the discussion, I would answer them.”
So, suddenly, points you make, or claims you make, have nothing to do with the discussion? Are you honestly claiming that what you say in threads has nothing to do with the discussion in the threads?
Again, PROVE what you claimed. here’s what you wrote:
“It is not about control; it is about teaching that such nonsense is true.”
Okay, show us all where the Vatican teaches that this woman is right and telling the truth. Can you do that for us?
“That begins at the top and the Catholic Church loves the top-down authority, so they get to wear it.”
Okay, show us where Pope Benedict XVI teaches that this woman is right and telling the truth. Can you do that for us?
Can you prove your claims or not?
You wrote out a launry list of statements that show more about the state of your knowledge than anything else:
“Witness all of the claims about “stigmata” and “cheetos” and mary in the pancake. These don’t arise from biblical Christians, but RCs.”
No, actually claims of the unusual come from all groups. What is interestind is actual stigmata is only found among historic Christians as far as I know. Some Catholics and Orthodox have had it, but no Protestants as far as I know. Protestants are cut off from such signs and blessings apparently.
“Even Santeria is simply the mystical elements of RC and Voodoo blended together. There is just so much similarity that the pagans practising one, add the other.”
And that must mean - according to your logic - that historic Judaism and paganism are similar since ancient Jews moved rather seamlessly (but completely illogically) between the two and even blended them together in Northern Israel. This is especially clear when you look at the blood sacrifices of Jews and pagans in ancient times.
“The Scriptures do not support crossing yourself, although that has become a “sign” RCs use if they ever encounter a dead person or something shocking.”
It is the prayer invoked when someone signs themselves that is important: “In the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.” Calling upon the Trinity is an ancient practice when someone asks for God’s protection or guidance. And your point about “Scriptures do not support crossing yourself” is ridiculous. The Scriptures don’t explicitly support many things that many Protestants take for granted. That doesn’t make them unbiblical in themselves and it certainly doesn’t make them wrong. The cross is a stumbling block for some. The sign of the cross is a stumbling block for you.
“As if this act can protect them against something. Similarly, the rosary is a chanted concoction of repetitious words which Jesus specifically warned against, “And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetiton as the Gentiles do, for they suppose they will be heard for their many words” Matt. 6:7”
You’re completely wrong. Jesus warned against meaningless repetition. The rosary is not meaningless repetition. Each decade of the rosary has a different meditation. Each terso a different theme. Jesus said the same prayer in the garden three times. That’s called repetition. It just wasn’t meaningless repetition. (Matthew 26:44)
“This is not anti-Catholic. It is anti-error... Rome should repent, if it can.”
No, it’s anti-Catholic and you are the one spreading error. You should repent of spreading the usual anti-Catholic misrepresentations.
This is dangerously close to making it personal. Should we have the Mod visit? We can agree that I believe the Catholic Church is in error and you don't. But, I am not speaking about you, personally, since I have no idea what you actually believe. Nevertheless, it is perfectly acceptable to point out places I observe error in the RCC.
"The reported apparitions at Fatima were officially declared "worthy of belief" by the Catholic Church"
This is a quote about Our Lady of Fatima. This is the nonsense to which I refer. Once "authenticated" by headquarters, of course the average Catholic is set to accept Medjugorje and the event that is the subject of this thread. I don't have any idea what the Vatican thinks about this one. But, you are having a great deal of difficulty understanding that I am arguing that they are responsible for these "kind" of ridiculous tenets. They set the idea in motion, so they get to wear it. Repent Rome, if you can.
LOL
I'm quite certain Christ does not consider Biblical quotations meaningless.
Really? Then try adding I Chron. 26:18 to your rosary next time.
What if you don't think you will be heard for your many words and if the words and their repetitions are not meaningless to you? It is a matter of interpretation that this text disparages all repetition. It's the reader's choice. "Vain" could be seen as applying to ALL repetitions or as distinguishing one kind (the empty kind) from other kinds. I do not pray the rosary to be more heard than I am when I make a spontaneous or other prayer. So I do not meet the description Jesus provides in that line.
And your description of Catholics crossing themselves is comically unrealistic.
Maybe it's just Catholic deviousness but my impression is that arguments articulate their premises and use logic to move from those premises to the desired conclusion.
By "logic" I mean the kind of understanding to the relationships among propositions and their implications that avoids useless argument. For example if someone says "I'm quite certain Christ does not consider Biblical quotations meaningless," the fact that SOME Biblical quotations are obscure is by no means a refutation. To offer it as such is to demonstrate a failure in logic. It also demonstrates tendentiousness because we know Our Lord quoted or paraphrased Scripture.
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