Posted on 01/23/2010 4:09:32 PM PST by NYer
I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you. 1 Corinthians 11:2
Most Protestant Christians believe that the Bible is the only source concerning faith. According to them, there is no need for Apostolic Tradition or an authoritative, teaching Church. All that they need is the Bible in order to learn about the faith and to live a Christian life. The "Bible Alone" teaching can be appealing in its simplicity, but it suffers from fundamental problems. A few are considered here.
First the Bible itself states that not everything important to the Christian faith is recorded in it. For example, not everything that Christ did is recorded in the inspired Books:
But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. [John 21:25; RSV]
According to John 20:31, some things have been recorded in the Gospel in order to come to know Christ; however, John 21:25 suggests that there is still more to know about Him. At least for St. John the Apostle, there was more that he needed to teach which was not recorded in the Bible:
I had much to write you, but I would rather not write with pen and ink; I hope to see you soon, and we will talk together face to face. [3 John 13-14]
Also St. Paul instructs Timothy on how to orally pass on the teachings of the faith:
...what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. [2 Tim. 2:2]
St. Paul even commands (2 Thess. 3:6) the Thessalonian Christians to follow the oral Traditions of the Apostles:
So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us (Apostles), either by word of mouth (oral) or by letter (Epistle). [2 Thess. 2:15]
These commands promoting Oral Tradition would be quite strange, if only the Bible were needed to pass on the entire Christian faith.
A second problem with the "Bible Alone" teaching is canonicity - i.e. which Books belong in the Bible? It must be remembered that the Books of the Bible were written individually along with other religious books. Centuries later the Church compiled together the inspired Books under one cover to form the "Bible." A big question in the early Church was which books are the inspired written Word of God. (Inspired=written by men but authored by God; See Catechism of the Catholic Church 106.)
Scripture did not come with an "inspired" Table of Contents. Nowhere in the sacred texts are all the Books listed. There are some Books cited in the sacred writings but these lists are vague and incomplete (Acts 28:23; 2 Peter 3:16). There are also references to books not found in the Bible, such as St. Paul's Epistle to the Laodiceans (Col. 4:16). St. Paul even encourages the Colossians to read this epistle, but still it is not in the Bible. Jesus in the Gospel never attempts to list the "official" Books of the Old Testament (OT). This issue was hotly debated in His day. Today Protestant and Catholic Christians disagree over which Books belong in the OT. Catholics follow the list in the Septuagint (2nd century B.C. Greek translation of the Hebrew Scripture) while Protestants follow the list used by the Pharisees. A list from Jesus could have eliminated this problem, but no such list is found in the Gospel. As a result the Bible needs a visible authority outside of itself to list the inspired sacred Books. This authority must be guided by the Holy Spirit since these Books are from the Holy Spirit.
Some Christians claim that the Table of Contents in their Bible lists the inspired Books. Even though found in modern Bibles, the Table of Contents is still not inspired. It is not the Word of God but words added later by human editors, much similar to footnotes. The Table of Contents is basically the opinion of the publishing editor. Others may claim that the closing verses in the Book of Revelation, specifically Rev. 22:18-19, cap off the Bible and define all the preceding Books as inspired by God. But do these verses apply to the whole Bible or only the Book of Revelation? Another flaw with this idea is that not all Bibles have the same number of Books. As alluded to above, Catholic and Protestant Bibles contain different numbers of OT Books, yet all these Bibles close with the same verses: Rev. 22:18ff. Both cannot be right. Finally the Book of Deuteronomy contains similar verses (4:2 & 12:32). Does this imply that the Books after Deuteronomy are not inspired by God? No.
A third problem with the "Bible Alone" teaching is proper understanding of critical Bible passages. Most Protestant Christians promote personal interpretation of the Bible, i.e. anyone can interpret these passages by himself. Unfortunately this leads to chaos. For example over Baptism, some Protestants accept the validity of infant Baptism, while others do not. Some believe in the necessity of Baptism for salvation, citing Mark 16:16, while others disagree by citing John 3:16. They all claim to be Bible-based, but still they disagree over fundamental issues regarding salvation. Sadly the "Yellow Pages" phone directory is a witness to the many "Bible-Based" churches who disagree with each other over key issues of the Christian faith. Personal interpretation of the Bible naturally leads to a mire of human doctrines as a result of differing personal opinions.
The Bible was not written as a catechism. It is a collection of many different styles of writing - poetry, history, parables, letters, songs, etc. - requiring different ways of understanding. Sometimes Jesus in the Gospel purposely taught in figurative language and parables, which makes literal interpretation impossible. Even St. Peter admits that St. Paul's Epistles can be difficult to understand:
...Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. [2 Peter 3:15-16]
Finally the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8:30ff needed St. Philip to explain the Book of Isaiah. Obviously not everyone can understand the meaning of Scripture by simply reading it. More is required. These difficulties in the Bible demand an independent visible teaching authority that is guided by the Holy Spirit.
Even the Bible points to the importance of the Church for teaching the Truth. According to St. Peter in the Bible:
First of all you must understand this, that no prophesy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. [2 Peter 1:20-21]
At least prophecies in the Bible are not a matter of personal interpretation. These prophesies must be properly interpreted by "men moved by the Holy Spirit" since the Holy Spirit is the Author. These "men" are the Bishops of the Church - the successors to the Apostles (Acts 20:28-32). Finally the Bible does not call itself the bulwark of the truth; however, St. Paul does make reference to the Church in those terms:
...the household of God, which is the Church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth. [1 Tim. 3:15]
According to the Bible, the Church is "the pillar and bulwark of the truth."
All Christians, including Catholics, should read the Bible in order to grow more in the faith; however, we still need the Church. The Church is needed to accurately pass on Apostolic Tradition (Romans 10:17), define the canon of the Bible (i.e. list the inspired Books), safeguard the accurate transmission (e.g. translations) of the Bible and interpret key passages, all with guidance from the Holy Spirit according to God's Will. The Church is needed for other reasons too. It must be understood that the Church is not merely men making arbitrary decisions but men executing authority from God guided by the Holy Spirit. The Church may at times be tested by scandals or scarred by the sins of men. We may sometimes disagree with the policies of the Church, but she is still the instrument of the Holy Spirit. This visible Church is the one built by Jesus Christ on St. Peter, the rock (Matt. 16:18-19; John 1:24). This is the Catholic Church.
I wonder how it’s worked in life to
snatch defeat from the jaws of victory
so habitually.
That beyond the basics for Salvation . . . e.g.
That Christ came in the flesh . . .
Confess with mouth and believe in heart that Jesus' Blood was shed for our Salvation; Is Lord etc. . . .
and a reasonably short list of other Scriptures outlining basic parameters of the Christian life . . .
that
God gives some degree of Grace for growing in Him led of Holy Spirit and working out our own Salvation IN HIM with fear and trembling.
I believe known persistent unforgiveness of others; harsh, mean-spirited carnal fleshly judgment of others; idolatry; blasphemy; willful persistent conscious sins . . . are exceedingly hazardous to one's relationship with God as well as in obeying love Him First and others as ourselves.
I believe God often tends to have a very personally tailored response to minor issues in our lives--according to His training program for maturing us and for maturing us in our faith. . . . that generally, minor things are minor things. At various points, this or that minor issue can be suddenly made a major issue of obedience to His Word, leading, will for us specifically at that moment in that context. . . . and, to whom much is given, much is required.
I believe that God considers His Word more important and crucial even than the fabric of tangible reality. . . . that He maintains His Word, the efficacy of His Word, the operation of His Word, the detailed fulfillment of His Word to the nth degree . . . MUCH MORE than He cares about the stability of atomic structures and stars and planets in their orbits.
I believe that arrogance, rebellion, idolatry, witchcraft, stubbornness, blasphemy, unforgiveness and harsh-carnal-fleshly-mean-spirited-critical-judgment are seen in extremely negative terms by The Lord . . . that their reaping is particularly corrosive, destructive, deadly and more fully and rapidly so than a lot of other sins and hazards to souls.
I believe that Loving God foremost and putting Him first in all things 24/7 is utmost crucial in the life of a Christian . . . and that close following is loving others as ourselves.
I believe that we cannot fix ourselves yet are tasked with choosing (and following through in actions) as best we can to cooperate with His being the author and finisher of our faith and of us.
I believe GOD IS GOD and we are not, most mercifully. I believe that GOD IS ALTOGETHER GOOD; GOOD ALL THE TIME; ALL THE TIME, HE IS GOOD.
I believe that believers serious about walking with God as His children hear His Voice as Christ declared. Christ died for relationship and that means dialogue. No dialogue? Then something's wrong with the relationship or there's wax build-up in spiritual ears.
I believe God prefers candor and honesty. He does NOT TOLERATE affrontive challenges to His Nature, Godhood, Majesty, Authority, Goodness . . . As Bill Cosby put it . . . "Noah, how long can you tread water?"
. . . Not an exhaustive . . . statement of belief and faith . . . just some main points early on a Fri morn.
##########
NO! MOST EMPHATICALLY NO!
Reality does NOT tell me that by a long shot.
King David said he had never seen the righteous foresaken nor their seed begging bread.
There IS a reaping for righteousness sown that is enormously above, better than the reaping of unrighteousness.
Ignorance of that is pitiful, pathetic ignorance of the worst sort.
Yes, God does not seem to have such things set up in a strict digitized vending machine instantaneous fashion.
The complexities are plenty and the delays can seem excruciatingly drawn out for ages. We are not, per se, rats in the skinner box with the food pellet dispenser and electric grid all wired in to instant reinforcements and punishments.
The complexity is likely tied in somehow to our subjective experience of whatever degree of free-will is our existential thrownness in that moment and context.
God is not interested in being our Great Heavenly Vending Machine & Instant Imperfection Shredder. He's interested in being our Father and Friend.
The dance is not hop-scotch. It is a complex choreography of HIS leading. He wants us to follow, flow with Him. He also wants to delight us beyond our dreams.
Our delight in all ways is tied super tightly to the degree of our delight IN HIM. That alone is safe for us and for Creation.
It’s difficult to imagine a way to foster an increased understanding of God’s perspective on all that.
I do know that His grief over suffering is greater than ours.
I do know that you haven’t and can’t construct the least elevation of a pedestal from which to judge God in any remotely kosher, safe or accurate way or degree.
I do know that children who die before accountability enjoy God’s presence—and that on balance they suffer far less than most of us left to live out our lives.
I do know that choices have consequences for the chooser and for others around them and for their descendants and for the world at large.
You have free will. Do as you will. But, as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD. To the best of my ability, as God gives me the light to know His Word.
###
INDEED.
Oh, I guess, then it must be right, LOL! Keep telling yourself that. In fact why don;t you go to swetashops of Bombay or the slums of Rio or the killing fields of Darfur and tell the suffering Christians that! It's easy to believe fairy tales from the comfort of one's home, belly, full, feet warm, seeing the world through rose-colored glasses...and psychosis helps too.
God is not interested in being our Great Heavenly Vending Machine & Instant Imperfection Shredder. He's interested in being our Father and Friend
Oh, yes, of course, that's why the world he loved so much is suffering so much...
You know that...how?
I do know that you haven’t and can’t construct the least elevation of a pedestal from which to judge God in any remotely kosher, safe or accurate way or degree.
But obvisouly you can...?
I do know that children who die before accountability enjoy God’s presence—and that on balance they suffer far less than most of us left to live out our lives.
Prove it...
I do know that choices have consequences for the chooser and for others around them and for their descendants and for the world at large.
Oh, wow, what wisdom!
Your consistent inconsistencies
as well as your
consistent hostilities are
at least a little impressive in their predictability.
No sale.
I’ve lived in Asia 16 years.
And you?
Thanks for the support.
17so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
Scripture = So man of God may be adequate, If I'm adequate in God's eyes that's all I need.
Proplem is some Church's add/take away from what makes one adequate in God's eyes and make them adequate in man's eyes.
The reason you state we need Church is in the Bible.
Those things Jesus did, Paul did that are not written must not be needed because the scripture are adequate.
We need preaching/teaching/Instruction: but all that must be done without conflicting with the Word “The Bible”, So all the supplements must be done according to the Word of God, no other Gospel is accepted by God. We know we need this because the Bible tells us, not because the Bible is missing stuff
God has given us “all things that pertain to life and
godliness” - 2Pe 1:3
IN THE SCRIPTURES, WE HAVE ALL WE NEED...
To believe in Jesus - Jn 20:30-31
To have life in His name - Jn 20:30-31
To have fellowship with the Father, the Son, and the apostles- 1Jn 1:3
To have joy that is full - 1Jn 1:4
To have help when we sin - 1Jn 2:1
To know that we have eternal life - 1Jn 5:13
To understand the revelation of the mystery of God - Ro 16:
25-26; Ep 3:3-4
To be fruitful in the knowledge of Jesus Christ and have an
abundant entrance into the everlasting kingdom - 2Pe 1:8-11
What else must one know or have?
But to the Christian, the present heaven and earth is like the front of the wristwatch. It is keeping perfect time.
For instance, war does not cause death. It merely hastens the inevitable. Likewise, medical marvels do not save lives. They merely delay the inevitable.
Certainly, God could have made everything perfect from the beginning. But if He did, we would not be able to make mistakes. And children cannot be raised in a bubble.
As the Scriptures say, God created it "good." (Genesis 1) He did not create it "perfect."
God didn't need this heaven and earth. We did.
He doesn't change. We do.
When those whose altars rest beneath the horizon despair, those whose lives are hid with Christ in God have peace.
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. – Matthew 24:35
But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep [you] from evil. – 2 Th 3:3
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. – I John 4:18
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. – John 5:24
Amen! Agree completely!
Why does it seem to me that some will always see things negatively and NEVER see the good and positive that God does on the individual level in the midst of the storms of life? Is it the glass half full/empty mindset or something far deeper?
I spent most of my life in different parts of the world, including Asia for six years. What’s your point?
...no more than your not answering questions.
You seemed to be of the opinion that I had no first hand experience with extreme poverty.
As usual, you seem to be jumping to conlusions and putting words in my mouth.
It's not "about" this heaven and earth. It's "about" the next heaven and earth, wherein God has gathered His adopted children to live with Him forevermore
I can see why that would make this heaven and earth easier to bear for some. Neverhtless, there is no evidence that the next one exists any more than pink unicorns on Jupiter.
To the naturalist, the world is like the opened back of a wristwatch. Every thing happening in the physical realm seems to run in opposition. It makes no "sense" to him.
I don't think that. I just accept that this is how the world is (some of it is out own making), but what am I going to accomplish trying to find "meaning" to natural disasters or supernovae? If the climate sucks I can move. But can't stop the rain or the earthquakes.
But you are right, the world makes no sense because we would never make it that way, and I am sure if your dog could be asked he would probably try to make it more a doggy dog world than like this, i.e. one that has fresh bones strewn all over the place, or something.
But to the Christian, the present heaven and earth is like the front of the wristwatch. It is keeping perfect time.
Well, of course. If you are good and love your God then you get a reward. It makes perfect sense.
For instance, war does not cause death. It merely hastens the inevitable. Likewise, medical marvels do not save lives. They merely delay the inevitable.
Maybe you should start a new Jim Jones movement. This is like closet Gnosticism where this world is a horrible prison for the souls and death is liberation...so why not fight as many wars and kill each other off as fats as possible?
Certainly, God could have made everything perfect from the beginning. But if He did, we would not be able to make mistakes. And children cannot be raised in a bubble
Well, I am sure God could raise children in a bubble...don;t you think? So he had to make an imeprfectworld, you say? Oh, geez, and the perfect world would be "imperfect," and found "lacking" because it had no mistakes? LOL! So what will you do in heaven for all eternity when you don't make any mistakes...So, now mistakes are what makes our lives "rich?" I know, Adam was so miserable before the fall...like a teen growing up on a farm; nothing ever happens there...
As the Scriptures say, God created it "good." (Genesis 1) He did not create it "perfect."
Okay, pleasant, agreeable. So, the he had to make sure it gets unpleasant and disagreeable...just to make sure we don't get too happy?
We didn't need anything. The Bible is clear he didn't ask us what we need. He just made us, right? It's like you didn't ask to be born. Someone else made that decision, now you have to live with it (no pun intended).
But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep [you] from evil. – 2 Th 3:
Then why do Christians pray "do not lead us into temptation...?"
I think I will just stay with: what will be will be. That seems to work for me.
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