Posted on 02/28/2010 8:30:39 AM PST by CondoleezzaProtege
INDEED.
And quite well put, imho.
Thx.
Undoubtedly QUITE SO. QUITE SO.
At least from all the available evidence.
AMEN! AMEN! QUITE SO! QUITE SO!
Sir, sir, sir,
I think we have a problem with the “Keeper of the Forest”.
A state trooper pulls a car over on a lonely back road and approaches the Keeper of the Forest. “Sir, is there a reason that you’re weaving all over the road?”
The Keeper of the Forest replied, “Oh officer, thank goodness you’re here!! I almost had an accident! I looked up and there was a tree right in front of me. I swerved to the left and there was another tree in front of me. I swerved to the right and there was another tree in front of me!”
Reaching through the side window to the rear view mirror, the officer replied, “Sir...that’s your air freshener.”
Now I think unless we have an ADA hiring problem here we need some one who can tell the trees from the forest.
I loaned the Institues to xzins who was going to make a few corrections and explanatory comments.
Isn’t it telling that one who chooses to deny can sweep aside the Universe existing, with all the exquisite fine tuning and complexity, as ‘not extraordinary evidence’.
Yes, that is what He meant, interpreted through the totality of scripture. If every single sentence He uttered HAD to be completely self-contained for all meaning, as you seem to argue, then the Bible would be 500,000 pages long. By Divine design the Bible was intended to be interpreted from within itself. Take your last example. You are right that it does not say "Those I love will believe and will be saved.” Do you therefore believe He meant that only those God hated will believe and be saved BECAUSE it doesn't say those He loved? Of course not. You can't say a verse lacks incorporated meaning because it doesn't present specific words. It MIGHT have incorporated meaning if supported by clear statement or reasonable inference from other scripture.
This is frankly why I think you do not know what to do (I think you said) with the predestination verses. They WOULD make perfect sense if taken in light of the rest of God's perfect and Holy word. God's sovereignty and sovereign choices are throughout scripture. The idea that God abdicated His sovereignty in making decisions personally in the case of humans deciding their own salvations is actually a glaring exception to the rest of scripture. Where else does God leave things to chance (whosoever will/won't)?
Actually, I have answered some reasons why some believe and others don’t. The prostitutes, for example, were aware of their need, while the Pharisees thought they already were righteous.
OK, and naturally I would ask how or why the prostitutes were aware and the Pharisees were not. Was it by chance?
But what he NEVER says is that it is because their names weren’t on his ‘Happy List of the Elect’ from before creation...or because he hates them and wants them to burn in hell for his glory.
But that is exactly what the predestination verses say (e.g. Rom. 8:28-39; Eph. 1:3-14; 2 Thess. 2:13-14; 2 Tim. 1:9-10). And we have this which I think addresses your statement directly:
Sorry, meant to ping you to 726.
“If every single sentence He uttered HAD to be completely self-contained for all meaning, as you seem to argue, then the Bible would be 500,000 pages long.”
I would be content with a SINGLE verse that explicitly teaches Calvinism!
It isn’t JUST John 3:16, it is hundreds of verses about believing and being saved. Without a SINGLE verse saying “If your name is on my list”!
Predestination is used 6 times in the New Testament. SIX TIMES! And not once is it used as a list of names that will be saved.
Elect is used a whopping 23 times! (In the AV, 16 times as elect and 7 as chosen.)
29 verses total, with NONE of them describing a list of names who are loved and irresistibly saved.
If that is the Gospel, why didn’t someone write something about it? Yes, God’s sovereignty is mentioned throughout scripture - and if his sovereign will is to save WHOSOEVER BELIEVES, that is still his sovereign will. Only in bizarro world does sovereignty = make every decision.
“But that is exactly what the predestination verses say (e.g. Rom. 8:28-39; Eph. 1:3-14; 2 Thess. 2:13-14; 2 Tim. 1:9-10).”
Not hardly. Romans 8 says those he foreknew, he predestined, called, etc. Foreknow does NOT equal predestined.
Ephesians 1 says nothing about a list of names, but “ 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.”
Indeed, the entire passage, running on thru chapter 2, is about us incorporate in Christ - corporate election, not individual salvation decisions. What did God choose? that in him we should be blameless and holy - the Gospel, not individual salvation decisions.
” 13But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.”
How did God choose us? By name? Or “through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth”? Where is the ‘name on a list’?
Romans 9 is part of Romans 9-11, which is answering the question, “Does Israel’s rejection of Christ mean they are no longer the chosen ones of God?” And the answer is, “For a time they are not, but God will bring them back in the end”.
Romans 9 is not about God making some individuals believe or not, but his setting aside Israel (corporate election, again) in favor of Gentiles. The chapter summary (so to speak, since there were no chapters as written) is this:
“That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. 32Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone...For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.”
And it doesn’t impact individuals, since “whoever believes in him will not be put to shame”.
Paul discusses the Gospel in Chapters 1-8. Romans 9-11 discuss how it was possible for the chosen people to miss Jesus, and what will be their corporate fate. 12 on discusses living as a Christian.
Not only do Calvinists turn hundreds of verses about believing inside out so they can cling to bad interpretation of 30 verses, but they refuse to read Romans as a whole.
The Gospel is simple. God repeats it hundreds of times in the New Testament alone. It takes genius to turn corporate election into individual salvation, and then twist the remaining scriptures by the hundreds to match 30 screwed up readings.
BD “Sarcasm aside, there is no mention of Cornelius’ “great faith” in the scriptures. What you do find in the story is God’s leading him to salvation with no mention of his exercising faith. It was all of God. “
Hmm...Acts 10: “ 1At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion of what was known as the Italian Cohort, 2a devout man who feared God with all his household, gave alms generously to the people, and prayed continually to God. 3 About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God come in and say to him, “Cornelius.” 4And he stared at him in terror and said, “What is it, Lord?” And he said to him, “Your prayers and your alms have ascended as a memorial before God. 5And now send men to Joppa and bring one Simon who is called Peter. 6He is lodging with one Simon, a tanner, whose house is by the sea.” 7When the angel who spoke to him had departed, he called two of his servants and a devout soldier from among those who attended him, 8and having related everything to them, he sent them to Joppa.”
Did Cornelius receive commendation from God prior to his conversion, and did he interact with God prior to receiving the Holy Spirit?
BD “The Holy Spirit convicted them of sin before they believed and were baptized. That is the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit. They were dead in trespasses and sin and quickened, brought to life, and recognized their condition. “
No, this is the Holy Spirit convicting. To be born again requires the Holy Spirit in you, which is the promise in Acts 2. God convicts. Those who repent and believe are baptized in the Holy Spirit, and become new creations. “But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God...” Receiving and believing precede becoming the child of God - being born ‘from above’.
“When one reads the context of the parable of the Prodigal son they will find the subject is the father’s searching for the son. It is the father’s love, not the son’s change of heart that is being taught.”
I recommend John MacArthur’s sermons (a set of two) on the Prodigal Son. Like Calvin, MacArthur does better teaching verse by verse than he does when he tries to teach systematically! It is the father’s love WHEN the son repents and returns. The father doesn’t go to the rebellious son and bring him irresistibly home.
I wrote: “And there isn’t a single verse where God says he regenerates those whose names are on his list, and gives them faith. That seems kind of odd, if that is God’s plan of salvation.”
BD lists the following in response...my comments in []:
Eph. 1:4-5, “According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,”
[Discussed in my response in my post above. Ephesians 1-2 is about us IN CHRIST. Corporate election.]
Jn. 1:13, “Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”
[As I pointed out earlier, those who believe are then born...not those who are born then believe. “But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.”]
Col 2:13, “And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;”
[Yes, those who have been forgiven are born again, and live...what does this have to do with election by name to salvation vs corporate election?]
Jas. 1:18, “Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.”
[Again - no idea how this involves individual salvation by a list of names. God chose to save whosoever believes - that is his will, as repeatedly spoken in scripture. It is God’s will to do so, not our plan that we compelled God to accept.]
Jn. 3:3-6, “Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”
[Yes, and as John has already pointed out: “But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God...” And as John 3 goes on to point out, whoever believes shall live, and whoever refuses to shall be condemned.]
Tit. 3:5-6, “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;”
[Exactly. No one is saying we earn salvation by our good deeds, but by receiving the gift of salvation made by God to all who believe.]
Eph. 2:1, “And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;”
[Yes. And who is it he gives life to? Whoever believes. It never says, as I pointed out in the beginning, that he gives life so that someone can believe.]
Rom. 8:29-30, “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
[Yes, God foreknows everyone and everything. Predestination is what those in Christ will become - conformed to the image of Jesus.]
Hmmm. That would make xzins the "Keeper of the Institutes".
I guess that would make you the "Loaner of the Sacred Screed"
Found this...it may help explain corporate election to those interested (or not).
“Both the traditional view and the corporate election view are allowed in SEA, for both conceive of election and predestination as conditional on faith in Christ. This material comes from Zondervan’s NIV Life in the Spirit Study Bible. The description of the doctrines of election and predestination is followed by some comments quoted from the study Bible’s notes on 1 Peter 1:2 and Romans 8:29 to show how the corporate election perspective might view the place of foreknowledge in election, also quite different from the traditional Arminian view, though completely consonant with Arminian theology, figured as it is within a conditional view of election and predestination.
Election. God’s choice of those who believe in Christ is an important teaching of the apostle Paul (see Ro 8:29-33; 9:6-26; 11:5, 7, 28; Col 3:12; 1 Th 1:4; 2 Th 2:13; Tit 1:1). Election (Gk eklego) refers to God choosing in Christ a people whom he destines to be holy and blameless in his sight (cf. 2 Th 2:13). Paul sees this election as expressing God’s initiative as the God of infinite love in giving us as finite creation every spiritual blessing through the redemptive work of his Son (1:3-5). Paul’s teaching about election involves the following truths:
(1) Election is Christocentric, i.e., election of humans occurs only in union with Jesus Christ. “He chose us in him” (Eph. 1:4; see 1:1, note). Jesus himself is first of all the elect of God. Concerning Jesus, God states, “Here is my servant whom I have chosen” (Mt 12:18; cf. Isa 42:1, 6; 1 Pet 2:4). Christ, as the elect, is the foundation of our election. Only in union with Christ do we become members of the elect (Eph 1:4, 6-7, 9-10, 12-13). No one is elect apart from union with Christ through faith.
(2) Election is “in him…through his blood” (Eph 1:7). God purposed before creation (Eph. 1:4) to form a people through Christ’s redemptive death on the cross. Thus election is grounded on Christ’s sacrificial death to save us from our sins (Ac 20:28; Ro 3:24-26).
(3) Election in Christ is primarily corporate, i.e., an election of a people (Eph 1:4-5, 7, 9). The elect are called “the body of Christ” (4:12), “my church” (Mt 16:18), “a people belonging to God” (1 Pe 2:9), and the “bride” of Christ (Rev 19:7). Therefore, election is corporate and embraces individual persons only as they identify and associate themselves with the body of Christ, the true church (Eph 1:22-23; see Robert Shank, Elect in the Son, [Minneapolis: Bethany House Publishers]). This was true already of Israel in the OT (see Dt 29:18-21, note; 2Ki 21:14, note; see article on God’s Covenant with the Israelites, p. 298).
(4) The election to salvation and holiness of the body of Christ is always certain. But the certainty of election for individuals remains conditional on their personal living faith in Jesus Christ and perseverance in union with him. Paul demonstrates this as follows. (a) God’s eternal purpose for the church is that we should “be holy and blameless in his sight” (Eph 1:4). This refers both to forgiveness of sins (1:7) and to the church’s purity as the bride of Christ. God’s elect people are being led by the Holy Spirit toward sanctification and holiness (see Ro 8:14; Gal. 5:16-25). The apostle repeatedly emphasizes this paramount purpose of God (see Eph 2:10; 3:14-19; 4:1-3, 13-24; 5:1-18). (b) Fulfillment of this purpose for the corporate church is certain: Christ will “present her to himself as a radiant church…holy and blameless” (Eph 5:27). (c) Fulfillment of this purpose for individuals in the church is conditional. Christ will present us “holy and blameless in his sight” (Eph 1:4) only if we continue in the faith. Paul states this clearly: Christ will “present you holy in his sight without blemish…if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel” (Col 1:22-23).
(5) Election to salvation in Christ is offered to all (Jn 3:16-17; 1Ti 2:4-6; Tit 2:11; Heb 2:9) but becomes actual for particular persons contingent on their repentance and faith as they accept God’s gift of salvation in Christ (Eph 2:8; 3:17; cf. Ac 20:21; Ro 1:16; 4:16). At the point of faith, the believer is incorporated into Christ’s elect body (the church) by the Holy Spirit (1 Co 12:13), thereby becoming one of the elect. Thus, there is both God’s initiative and our response in election (see Ro 8:29, note; 2 Pet 1:1-11).
Predestination. Predestination (Gk prooizo) means “to decide beforehand” and applies to God’s purposes comprehended in election. Election is God’s choice “in Christ” of a people (the true church) for himself. Predestination comprehends what will happen to God’s people (all genuine believers in Christ).
(1) God predestines his elect to be: (a) called (Rom. 8:30); (b) justified (Ro 3:24, 8:30); (c) glorified (Ro 8:30); (d) conformed to the likeness of his Son (Ro 8:29); (e) holy and blameless (Eph 1:4); (f) adopted as God’s children (1:5); (g) redeemed (1:7); (h) recipients of an inheritance (1:14); (i) for the praise of his glory (Eph 1:2; 1 Pe 2:9); (j) recipients of the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13; Gal 3:14); and (k) created to do good works (Eph 2:10).
(2) Predestination, like election, refers to the corporate body of Christ (i.e., the true spiritual church), and comprehends individuals only in association with that body through a living faith in Jesus Christ (Eph 1:5, 7, 13; cf. Ac 2:38-41; 16:31).
Summary. Concerning election and predestination, we might use the analogy of a great ship on its way to heaven. The ship (the church) is chosen by God to be his very own vessel. Christ is the Captain and Pilot of this ship. All who desire to be a part of this elect ship and its Captain can do so through a living faith in Christ, by which they come on board the ship. As long as they are on the ship, in company with the ship’s Captain, they are among the elect. If they choose to abandon the ship and Captain, they cease to be part of the elect. Election is always only in union with the Captain and his ship. Predestination tells us about the ship’s destination and what God has prepared for those remaining on it. God invites everyone to come aboard the elect ship through faith in Jesus Christ. [Life in the Spirit Study Bible, pp. 1854-1855]
Life in the Spirit Study Bible note on 1 Peter 1:2 —
the foreknowledge of God We are “chosen” to be God’s people according to his foreknowledge, i.e., according to God’s own comprehensive knowledge of his plan of redemption in Christ for the church, even before creation and human history began (see Rom. 8:29 note). Foreknowledge is virtually a synonym of God’s sovereign and far-seeing purpose to redeem according to his eternal love. The “chosen” are the company of true believers, chosen in harmony with God’s determined plan to redeem the church by the blood of Jesus Christ through the Spirit’s sanctifying work (see article on Election and Predestination, p. 1845). All believers must participate in their election by their response of faith and by being eager to make their calling and election sure (see 2 Pe 1:5, 10, notes).
Life in the Spirit Study Bible note on Romans 8:29 —
those God foreknew “Foreknew” in this verse is equivalent to “foreloved” and is used in the sense of “to set loving regard on,” “to choose to bestow love on from eternity” (cf. Ex 2:25; Ps 1:6’ Hos 13:5; Mt 7:23; 1 Cor 8:3; Gal 4:9; 1 Jn 3:1).
(1) Foreknowledge means that God purposed from eternity to love and redeem the human race through Christ (5:8; Jn 3:16). The recipient of God’s foreknowledge or forelove is stated in plural and refers to the church. That is, God’s forelove is primarily for the corporate body of Christ (Eph 1:4; 2:4; 1 Jn 4:19) and includes individuals only as they identify themselves with this corporate body through abiding faith in and union with Christ (Jn 15:1-6; see article on Election and Predestination, p. 1854)
(2) The corporate body of Christ will attain to glorification (v. 30). Individual believers will fall short of glorification if they separate themselves from that foreloved body and fail to maintain their faith in Christ (vv. 12-14, 17; Col 1:21-23).”
This aligns with tribal society, FWIW. One good side effect of a tour in Afghanistan was a better appreciation about how tribal societies view life. The Old Testament was primarily written from a tribal viewpoint, which can be odd to an individualistic society or nation-states. It certainly helps in understanding Joshua, for example.
“Did Cornelius receive commendation from God prior to his conversion, and did he interact with God prior to receiving the Holy Spirit?”
No, he communicated with an angel in a vision. But your comment was “And a centurion was commended for his “great faith” - even odder, since faith is a gift, and not something the centurion could have had... “ There is nothing in the story of Cornelius about faith nor is there any mention or indication that Cornelius exercised faith before he heard the gospel, in fact, he had to wait until the gospel was being preached.
“The father doesn’t go to the rebellious son and bring him irresistibly home”
That’s not what he parable is about. The parable is about the father’s concern for the lost son. That is the argument that Jesus was using against the Jews who were ridiculing him for dining with sinners. In another setting he said the well do not need doctors only the sick. Here it is he came to seek and to save the lost. The parable is not about the son; it is about the father, just as it is about the shepherd and the woman.
“That would make xzins the “Keeper of the Institutes””
Well, to be Calvinistically accurate, xzins would be the “Borrower of the Institutes” or a more common term a “Bookkeeper” since he has not returned them (typical of ministers). My last pastor took off with most of my library. I’m left with a couple of old Classic comic books and some Readers Digest Condensed Books. Fortunately he didn’t see my Cliff Notes versions of the Anti-Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers.
BD: “No, he communicated with an angel in a vision. But your comment was “And a centurion was commended for his “great faith” - even odder, since faith is a gift, and not something the centurion could have had... “ There is nothing in the story of Cornelius about faith nor is there any mention or indication that Cornelius exercised faith before he heard the gospel, in fact, he had to wait until the gospel was being preached.”
1 - Cornelius: “ 1At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion of what was known as the Italian Cohort, 2a devout man who feared God with all his household, gave alms generously to the people, and prayed continually to God. 3 About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God come in and say to him, “Cornelius.” 4And he stared at him in terror and said, “What is it, Lord?” And he said to him, “Your prayers and your alms have ascended as a memorial before God.”
If an angel came and told me my prayers and alms had ascended as a memorial to God, I suppose I would consider it a commendation of sorts. It sure was a strange way of telling Cornelius he was DEAD in his sins, and repulsive to God!
2 - Centurion. Should have been clearer, I guess.
“He was not far from the house when the centurion sent friends to say to him: “Lord, don’t trouble yourself, for I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. 7That is why I did not even consider myself worthy to come to you. But say the word, and my servant will be healed. 8For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”
9When Jesus heard this, he was amazed at him, and turning to the crowd following him, he said, “I tell you, I have not found such great faith even in Israel.” 10Then the men who had been sent returned to the house and found the servant well.”
Read verse 9 - that is what I was referring to. Jesus was amazed at the GREAT FAITH of the Centurion.
BD: “The parable is about the father’s concern for the lost son.”
True enough, but what does the parable say? “ 17”When he came to his senses, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired men have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! 18I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. 19I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired men.’ 20So he got up and went to his father.”
Later the father refers to him as having been dead - so it seems ‘dead’ meant ‘alienated’, not incapable of repentance.
At a minimum, you ought to be able to grant that this passage:
1As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.
COULD mean our sins had alienated us from God, and made us creatures God could have justly destroyed instead of granting us repentance. It MIGHT not refer to a corpse unable to respond to God’s grace. I don’t ask you to agree with me, just to admit that I’m not defying scripture by allowing that possibility!
And, of course, my interpretation means all those verses commanding men to repent and believe can be taken at face value, rather than requiring them to mean something else!
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: - Romans 1:18-20
Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. - Romans 1:28-32
SOBERINGLY
ABSOLUTELY INDEED.
Truly, under metaphysical naturalism the mind is merely an epiphenomenon of the physical brain. An epiphenomenon is a secondary phenomenon which cannot cause anything to happen.
Which you follow with "It is so obvious that there was [sic] a Creator..." ?!?
This is probably one of your most bizarre responses that I can remember. This has absolutely nothing to do with my statement you quote and even underscore. What does that have to do with you saying you have a brother and me saying that it is not an extraordinary claim???
Also, there is nothing "obvious" that there "was" [Freudian slip?] a Creator. It is a hypothetical assumption.
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