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To: Quix; Alamo-Girl
Raaaaahhhhhhhhhggggggt.

( I think you left out the attribution. This was first said by Howard Dean, I believe.)

Alamo girl already knows that I think that some of "sacred tradition" is "sacred" because it is not "of men." If we can agree to let that slide, then I also agree with her.

I will also have to "postulate" that the sacraments of the Catholic Church are what I call "reliable." They are not "exclusive." That is, for example, you do not have to go to confession to be forgiven, but if you go to confession, truly (if only partially) contrite and all the rest, you are reliably forgiven.

Then some of the "hocus pocus" can be viewed as a kind of guarantee that this particular sacrament has been "confected."

But that doesn't mean it's magic, in this way. Aquinas has a nice pair of personal prayers for before and after Mass. They both include the sense that "I" need some grace in me for the "real" (or "reliable") sacrament to be for my good, and not my condemnation.

All of this is stuff to sweep out of the way.

And it is very important to say that however much mercy we can imagine, God always has more and GIVES more.

So NOW I can try to address what you say. Some of my favorite Masses are those which are simplest. Simple church, minimal vestments, minimal ceremonial. The Rite (that is the "word" part) can be, at least to those who have studied liturgy, VERY simple, almost bald. Short prayer. Short prayer for forgiveness.
Reading from Bible, Psalm, Reading from one of the Gospels, Homily, prayers for the Church and the world (can be made up on the spot by the priest and room is given for the people to add their particular concerns).
"lay the table" (get bread, wine+water)
Pray, remembering aloud the Last Supper.
Lord's Prayer
Prayer for peace, and People in the congregation greet one another.
"fraction" (that is breaking of the bread)
Communion
clean up
Prayer
Blessing and Dismissal.

It can be done in a dignified way in 25 minutes, or even fewer!

There is no question that even that can be a distraction for some. It is easy for a kind of liturgical aesthete to be so concerned with HOW all this is done, that, well, you hardly ever hear them talking about the Mercy of God. Something is definitely wrong there.

But both in the moment and obviously, or much less later and discerned almost (as it were) by chance, one can find that "a great thing happened here."

AND it can be great and holy fun. Our Easter Vigil is wonderful ... tacky but wonderful! After the lighting of the new fire outside, and bringing the huge and heavy paschal candle into the church, as we all file in with our little candles, there is a wonderful solo hymn sung to ask God to bless the candle. Then there are many readings of the mighty saving acts of God in ancient times. Between are psalms and hymns.

Then, as the organ plays a fanfare which shakes the foundations, the lights are all lit, a huge banner is unfurled which says "Worthy is the Lamb." Ladies come from all directions with pots and pots of flowers and surround the altar in a sea of lilies and other flowers. Other flowers are placed at other places in the church. We all sing what for these forty days I call "the A-word" (work on it.)

And I tend to burst into tears.

And that's just the beginning! We read "Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us." We sing more A-words. We read the Easter Proclamation.
Then we baptize the converts, and receive and confirm those already baptized but coming "into full communion."
And then the Mass continues with sermon and prayers and all the rest.

It takes about 2.5 - 3 hours. There is incense -- lots of incense. There is ceremonial. There are bells, little bells and big bells. We are putting on the dog and having a PARTY! There are tears of joy.

And yes, there are splendid silks and linens, and many arts are represented. Trumpets and timpanies!

In a way it could be called "formal." I mean, for example, it is so artificial not to say the A-word for all of Lent. We are always rejoicing. Paul tells us to.

But to say it after a 40 day fast from saying it, and to remember what event makes the A-word always appropriate ... well, it's pretty good stuff.

How this touches Vatican II is maybe not so clear. At least not to me. I guess the thing is like this. In The Great Divorce Lewis points out that some can be so involved with collecting books that they never read. Some can be so concerned for helping the poor that they never notice that they've lost all charity for the poor person down the street. And some can be so tied up in the wording of this or that document, or even in the importance of this or that teaching (which is, truly, important) that they forget that, well, theology is one thing, and God is quite another -- something ELSE!

And I would say that, maybe, that is not the fault of theology, but of some theologians. It is only the grace of God which can make us humble. No amount of studying all the writers about humility can do that. But its not bad to study those writers, while it is disastrous to forget that without grace much study is a weariness of the flesh.

Enough. I think at bottom we are in agreement. God is in heaven, whatever He will to do He does -- and He wills to love us! May He be praised forever.

A-word. Definitely A-word!

16 posted on 03/03/2010 8:37:09 PM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Mad Dawg

Sometimes it’s amazing how much and how persistently I agree with you.

This was one of those posts.

Thanks.

Psst. Please don’t tell anyone . . . SOMETIMES even I can enjoy pagentry, pomp and circumstance.

I’m really looking forward to the REAL THING, however, the MARRIAGE SUPPER OF THE LAMB.

Everything else is shabby dress rehearsal.


17 posted on 03/03/2010 8:50:08 PM PST by Quix ( POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 TRAITORS http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Mad Dawg; Quix
Thank you dear brothers in Christ for keeping me in the loop as you share your testimonies with each other!

I think at bottom we are in agreement. God is in heaven, whatever He will to do He does -- and He wills to love us! May He be praised forever.

Amen.

Truly, no one can thwart the will of God.

Remember the former things of old: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else; [I am] God, and [there is] none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: - Isaiah 46:9-10

When I pray "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven" I am reminded that when we mortals love someone, we want what (s)he wants. If the wife loves the husband, and he wants roast chicken, she'll see it done. If the husband loves the wife and she wants the garbage taken out, he'll see it done.

All the more so we want God's will to be done because we love Him.

Then one of them, [which was] a lawyer, asked [him a question], tempting him, and saying, Master, which [is] the great commandment in the law?

Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

This is the first and great commandment.

And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. – Matthew 22:35-40

God's Name is I AM.
21 posted on 03/03/2010 9:56:28 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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