Posted on 05/15/2010 7:50:29 AM PDT by markomalley
You wrote:
“As I said, Catholics need to clean their own house first, Lord knows it needs cleaning.”
No more than Protestants, and none of our doctrines are heretical.
What about the numerous scandals of Catholic priests molesting and abusing children for many years with their superiors covering for them?
This is not a religion that should be criticizing other religions.
As I said a number of times by now — clean house first, lead by example, then we’ll talk.
Protestants who attend weekly services are also more conservative than those who don’t.
The real question isn’t “Are Catholics more conservative than non Catholics”, but “Who the heck let all the poofters in?”
This is the hopeful Roman Church wet dream of the author. He wishes it was that bad across all protestant and other Christian religious denominations. For certain, there are some serious problems in liberal denominations. Just as there are serious problems with Roman Catholics that embrace Liberation Theology, want female clergy, want being gay to be ‘god-blessed’ and priests unable to keep their celibacy vows with anything that walks.
For them to point fingers at the Protestants’ problems and somehow conclude this will either take them to atheism or back to the Roman church is intellectual fantasy. By this logic Protestants could point to all the current church problems and say this too will lead the Roman Catholics to further apostasy, atheism, or into different Christian denominations.
You wrote:
“What about the numerous scandals of Catholic priests molesting and abusing children for many years with their superiors covering for them?”
What about the numerous scandals of Protestant ministers molesting and abusing children for many years with their superiors covering for them? And how about their adulterous anf homosexual affairs as well?
“This is not a religion that should be criticizing other religions.”
Sure it is.
“As I said a number of times by now — clean house first, lead by example, then we’ll talk.”
No matter how many problems Catholics have, the Church is still right to criticize Protestant sects.
The fact remains, Catholics are more liberal than Protestants. Thus, it seems to me that either (1) Catholicism is more prone to fostering liberalism in its practicioners, or (2) Catholicism is more prone to fostering apostasy in its practicioners.
In either case, the Catholic church needs to figure out why its practicioners are more liberal than Protestants ... and fix THAT before complaining about the effect Protestant Christianity is having on “conservatism and ordered liberty”.
The greatest conservative revolution this world has ever known ... the American Revolution ... was started by Protestants who left Europe in large part to get away from the Catholic Church.
I’ll skip over the “heretical” nonsense.
SnakeDoc
What proportion of that blue Catholic swatch in the west do you figure is here legally?
SnakeDoc
Lord, ain't that the truth.
What people are missing in this article is the basic premise that was forwarded, not by the author of the piece, but by Alexis de Tocqueville in his seminal work, quoted by conservatives, whether Protestant or Catholic (and it is particularly ironic that Protestants quote this work). It is interesting is that none of the posters who have slammed me for posting this article have even dealt with de Tocqueville's premise. Because without that premise, the author of the piece in Catholic Exchange would have no article to write.
While I posted the entire chapter 6 of the article, chapter 7 is equally interesting: WHAT CAUSES DEMOCRATIC NATIONS TO INCLINE TOWARDS PANTHEISM (don't worry, I won't quote it here).
Actually, the American Revolution was started by a ecumenical group of both Protestants and Deists (with a couple of Catholics thrown in, albeit not many) who were opposing despotic rule by a Protestant King.
And, they received assistance from a Catholic King. Ironically enough (Louis XV and XVI).
The modern establishment of republics and representative governments largely owe their philosophical basis to Protestantism. Most modern representative governments were formed as a result of the ideas of the Reformation, as well as other political pressures involving the nobility, especially in England.
Catholicism generally gels well with absolutism, although granted that’s a bit of a broad brush as well. Let’s just say that in Europe in modern times, those governments disposed to absolutist monarch regimes were also the ones where Catholicism was strongest, as opposed to the Protestant and representative bent of other European countries.
I won’t be engaging in any sort of religious flame exchange, just FYI. But I did want to point out how modern conservatism and conservative values (which would have been called “liberal” economic values in history) with regard to personal rights and liberties owe a great deal to the Reformation, and the political results of the Reformation. Catholicism, obviously, is a great tradition also.
Obozo was elected almost entirely by something that did not exist in Toq’s time nor would he have been able to predict it — POP CULTURE!
That’s pretty well what I said. The Revolution was started largely by Protestants.
I never said the King of England was Catholic (though the founding of the Church of England is simply ridiculous) ... I said the Americans initially fled Europe largely to leave behind the Catholic church.
SnakeDoc
the notion to me as a white Southern Baptist from Mississippi that there is any question about our conservatism when one examines how we vote as opposed to how Catholics vote is an excercise in absurdity.
The population of Massachusetts is 44 percent Catholic, with about 25 percent belonging to various Protestant denominations. So why isn’t Massachusetts a solid “red” state?
Same here. Many posts in the religion forum seem to fall into the “exercise in absurdity” category.
SnakeDoc
-Your stats also lump “other Christians” in with Protestants. -
Stats pulled from BeliefNet
Used only to demonstrate Catholic Majority voting for Obama...
Agree that Protestant Stat. Handling may misleading
The following are a few random thoughts concerning the essay:
I am an alumna of Villanova University. I testify that the Catholic Church has **more** than its share of Marxists in every level of its academia and hierarchy. More than one Catholic Freeper has posted about their Obama loving clergy, or having to search out a more conservative parish.
Also...My daughter taught math in a Catholic K-12 school last year. Every teacher ( except my daughter) VOTED FOR OBAMA! The principal and teachers took every opportunity to show the students how wonderful it was that this man was president. Remember please that Obama not only supports abortion, he is in favor of partial birth abortion, and allowing born-alive aborted babies to die from neglect on cold stainless steel slabs in the utility room!
Before this Catholic author goes looking for mites in the eyes of Protestants, maybe he should get help removing the beam in his eye. Then he could see more clearly.
If we have a corrupt society today, it is NOT NOT NOT due to too much Protestantism and too little Catholicism! It is due to sending several generations of children into socialist-modeled, socialist-funded, complusory government schools that have been utterly **godless** in its worldview since the early 1900s. Even before 1900, when socialist government schools were imposed on our nation, the children were offered a generic and lukewarm Protestantism that the voting majority could tolerate. We know what Christ does with the lukewarm.
Is a “duh” necessary here? If children are taught day in and day out how to think godlessly and as socialists naturally we will rear up a nation of godless socialists ( Both Catholic and Protestant! )
For the most part, those countries that have grown out of a Catholic religious tradition ( Nearly all of South and Central America, Mexico, Spain, Italy ..etc.) have had far more chronically troubled societies, politically, economically, and socially, than those countries which have been primarily Protestant based.
The author also fails to note that the mainstream Protestant congregations are losing members. The Protestant denominations that are growing are those who the most firmly grounded in the bible.
Protestants are not chained in their belief to a denomination. We are free to leave and find churches or denominations that are closer to the Lord's will. So...Now we are in a situation where churches weak in the gospel and strong in Marxism are failing, and those that teach the bible are growing. How can that be a bad thing?
Catholics however are taught that if they leave the Catholic Church they are leaving the one and only **truth** and therefore are in extreme danger of hell after death. Some see this teaching as being almost cult-like mind control. This belief, coupled with a hierarchy that can not be easily or quickly reformed ( except through the very slow process of sending one’s sons into the seminary)has often resulted in chronic abuse of its members, and collusion with corrupt government, that at times has lasted for centuries.
Protestant churches are most often managed by the laity. The board will hire the minister. This continuous practice of self-rule within its churches meant that when our nation broke from England, our citizens were already very experienced in the sound principles of self-government and self-restraint.
Finally...The author strikes me as being almost Taliban-like . Gee! If only everybody could be Catholic and following the teaching of Catholic hierarchy we would finally have heaven on earth. ( Does Islam come to mind?)
The constitution was drawn up by protestants, mostly Calvinists .The question is can catholics ?
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