Is Sola Scriptura biblical? {Open)

www.cronos.com ^ | 31-May-2010 | Self Topic

[Cronos]

1. Where does the Bible claim sola scriptura?

2. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 says "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteous- ness; That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." --> it doesn't say that Scriptura is sufficient, just that it is profitable i.e. helpful. the entire verse from 14 to 17 says "But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; and that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God (Greek: theopneustos = "God-breathed"), and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works"
3. Where else do we have the term "sola scriptura" in the Bible?

4. Matthew 15 - Jesus condemns corrupt tradition, not all tradition. At no point is the basic notion of traidition condemned

5. 2 Thessalonians 2:15 "So then, brehtern, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter"

6. 1 Timothy 3:14-15

14Although I hope to come to you soon, I am writing you these instructions so that, 15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

note that the Pillar and Foundation of the Truth is The Church of the Living God

7. Nowhere does Scripture reduce God's word down to Scripture ALONE. Instead the Bible tells us in many places that God's authoritative Word is found in The Church: in Tradition (2 Th 2:15, 3:6) and in the Church teaching (1 Pet 1:25, 2 Pet 1:20-21, Mt 18:17). This supports the Church principle of sola verbum Dei, 'the Word of God alone'.

8. The New Testament was compiled at the Council of Hippo in 393 and the Council of Carthage in 397, both of which sent off their judgements to Rome for the Pope's approval.

9. Yet, the people HAD the Canon, the Word of God before the scriptures were compiled, and even before some were written

10. Books that were revered in the 1st and 2nd centuries were left out of canon. Book slike the Epistle of Barnabas, the Shepherd of Hermas and the Acts of Paul. Why?

11. There were disputes over 2 Peter, Jude and Revelation, yet they are in Scripture. Whose decision was trustworthy and final, if the Church doesn't teach with infallible authority?

12. How are Protestants sure that the 27 books of the New Testaments are themselves the infallible Word of God if fallible Church councils and Patriarchs are the ones who made up or approved the list (leaving out the Acts of Paul, yet leaving in Jude and Revelation)?

13. Or do Protestants have a fallible collection of infallible documents? And how do they know that Jude is infallible? And how do they know that the Epistle of Barnabus is not?

14. "And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ" (Eph. 4:11–15).

[mdmathis6]

Oh quix...pingaliangalinnnnng!

Sola Scriptura’s under discussion...againnnnn!

[Quix]

Some other priorities . . . maybe a nap . . . may check into it this evening.

THX.

[verga]

BTW, I am alive in Christ as every Christian is.

Given your tone I am not certain that you are a christian, but I will take your word for it, for the sake of arguement.

You got something against praying to God like we are taught to do by Jesus. Or your church knows more than Jesus on the subject. You think Jesus would mislead anyone or the church? NO where does Jesus say to pray to anyone but the FATHER.

Did you read Revelation chapter 8:3 Clearly the angel is presenting the prayers to God the Angel is acting as an intercessor or mediator.

[FatherofFive]

How do I know whose oral traditions are correct?

Easy.

Which Church has been around for 2,000 years, and is the only possible church that can fulfill Christ’s promises?

“And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Mat 6:18

Here Christ says his Church will not be destroyed.

“I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.” John 16:12-13

“But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.” 1Tim 3:15

Here Christ says, and Paul reaffirms, that the Church will always teach the TRUTH.

Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." Mat 28:18-20

Again, here Jesus assures us that He is always with us, to the very end.

So Christ says His Church will not be destroyed or fall away from him, that the Holy Spirit will guide the Church to always teach the Truth, and He will always be with us. So which Church do you think it is?

[mdmathis6]

Actually...”In Him we live and move and have our being, so that God is not far from us at any time” Paul

So much for angels being the telegraph poles for prayers....the Holy Spirit that dwells in every believer...yes the the third person of the trinity, communes in us and the Father empowering us to become ever living ever praying persons in constant relation with Christ and God and Spirit!

I do beleive it frightens many folks, Catholics or otherwise, when they first begin to understand just how up close and personal God is to his children. No privacy....and every last corner of our inner darkness exposed to his presence! Our growth comes partly from allowing ouselves the perspective as to just how much he knows what we think we secretly know about ourselves(and no one else could ever possibly know!) I do know it scared me and the knowledge still chafes at times....but now...I don’t want HIM to ever go away...chafe and all!

[verga]

I'm a little short on indulgences this week, is your parish running a sale on them perchance?

You are aware that you will answer for every word. Too bad Galileo was under house arrest for what offense? For saying the earth revolved around the sun instead of the other way around? Which infallible church would do such a thing Oh wise and ballpark knocker outer Verga? Thrall us with your acumen.

Galileo was under "house arrest" for trying to teach physical science as theological truth. But don't let th4e facts get in the way of your bigotry. I am certain that you are aware that Galileo was parroting the teaching of Copernicus, who was a Catholic Monk, and suffered no such indiginty for teaching the exact same thing but not as a religious truth. Like I said above, you will answer for every word.

[verga]

So much for angels being the telegraph poles for prayers....

Could you go to the Book of Revelation read Chapter 8:3 and re-post it here. I have already done so twice, let me know what you think it says.

[BipolarBob]

"you will answer for every word. "

As will you. As will those who sold indulgences to gullible people. As will those who burned at the stake those who disagreed with their beliefs. Where did the facts get in my way? What is the disagreement between physical science and Gods Truth? Did Christ not point to nature as evidence of God and His power? Galileo did nothing to deserve his fate and no amount of history revision and fancy word dancing will change that either.

[bkaycee]

Revelation is an extremely symbolic book. Rev 8:3 is not a command to pray to the angels or saints. Matt6:6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

9"This, then, is how you should pray: " 'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name,

[narses]

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[FatherofFive]

How can you actually eat His flesh if Transubstantiation does not occur?

He re is something else to consider – How can you “Behold” Christ without Transubstantiation? "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." John 6:40

"He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. John 6:54

John 6:40 and 6:54 are so linked and complementary. This is another reason Christ gave us the Eucharist, so we could behold Him for generations, not just when he was on the earth.

[Leoni]

re: The traditions of men took us from Adam’s perfect walk with God to Sodom in short order.

Sola sciptura took like 1 minute to create a chaff of false churches of one, it made every single Protestant an infallible pope and council of one. The only thing that Protestants agree on is that they don't want to be Catholics. What is the point of arguing with 500 million different private opinions?

“There are as many sects now and beliefs as there are heads. This fellow has nothing to do with baptism. Another one denies the sacraments. A third believes there is another world between this one and the last day. Some teach that Christ is not God. Some say this, some say that. There is no rustic so rude that if he dreams or fancies anything believes it must be the whisper of the Holy Spirit and that he himself must be a prophet.”(Martin Luther(Martin Luther)

One is either a Catholic, or anything that they want to be (Hilaire Belloc)

[OneWingedShark]

>Revelation 12:1 A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.

I was under the impression that the woman therein was the Church, not Mary.

>2. Apostolic succession
>
>Acts of the Apostles 1:20 For it is written in the Book of Psalms: ‘Let his encampment become desolate, and may no one dwell in it.’ And: ‘May another take his office.’
>
>Acts of the Apostles 1:26 26 Then they gave lots to them, and the lot fell upon Matthias, and he was counted with the eleven apostles.

As I understand it, I could be wrong; that is not, strictly speaking, ‘apostolic succession’ [the doctrine] which includes the origin/transmittal of the papacy.

>3. Transubstantiation
>
>Matthew, Mark, and Luke : This IS my body (Unless you are a clintonite the meaning of “is” needs no explanation.)

Or it could be the realization that it is both symbolic of & conscious acknowledgment that Jesus *IS* the Word of God made flesh and that “Man shall not live by bread alone; but by every word which proceeds from the mouth of God.” [See John 1]

It can be said, both literally and figuratively, that God is such a “manly man” (man comes from the Latin ‘vir’, which is the root word of virtuous) that God’s word is His bond/”He IS His Word.”

>4. Praying to the dead ...

I offer this observation: on a letter to someone it is generally not even acknowledged in the sender/return address who the carrier is; in the military there is something similar to such an acknowledgment, the “Thru” field . It is generally used for some lower-level commander requesting clarification on a order/directive that cannot be gotten from their immediate higher-up but must come through him and therefore the immediate [and intermediate] higher-ups will be in the ‘thru’ field.

HOWEVER, note that even in this situation the communique is TO the higher-up not the intermediate.

[Grunthor]

“Sola sciptura took like 1 minute to create a chaff of false churches of one, it made every single Protestant an infallible pope and council of one.”

Silliness. There is no such thing as an infallible man of ANY sort.

[BipolarBob]

They’re using the old strawman argument, they must be desperate.

[OneWingedShark]

>Did you read Revelation chapter 8:3 Clearly the angel is presenting the prayers to God the Angel is acting as an intercessor or mediator.

Unless, as Revelation is a prophetic vision with many metaphors, it is a metaphor for something... like, perhaps, the saying “and God remembered [X]” when it is clear that God [who is both unchanging and omniscient] does not forget.

If I recall, the voices of those prayers cry out to God asking “How long, oh God, will you refrain from Judgment [of those that killed us]?” [paraphrasing it]

[BipolarBob]

"One is either a Catholic, or anything that they want to be (Hilaire Belloc) "

I choose to be a Christian and follow what Christ taught and did.

[spunkets]

"..."three-legged stool": Bible, Church, and Tradition are all necessary to arrive at truth. If you knock out any leg of a three-legged stool, it collapses."

It's going to tip over anyway, because y'all left out reality and logic.

[OneWingedShark]

>>How do I know whose oral traditions are correct?
>
>Easy.
>
>Which Church has been around for 2,000 years, and is the only possible church that can fulfill Christ’s promises?

The Eastern Orthodox Church.
[;)]

>“And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Mat 6:18

You’re forgetting something: this is IMMEDIATELY following Peter’s answer to the question “Who do you say that I am?”

He [Peter] replied: “You are the Christ, the Son of God.”

This is where Jesus replies with a pun, yes Jesus had a sense of humor: the name he gave Peter was ‘stone’ [specifically a small rock] and Jesus goes on to say on this stone [boulder, that is the Truth of Jesus _being_ the Christ] is what He is going to build His church on.

>Here Christ says his Church will not be destroyed.

When has Christianity, which acknowledges Jesus as the Risen Savior, EVER been absent the globe since His Ascension [well, the Pentacost, if you want to be technical].

[OneWingedShark]

He re is something else to consider – How can you “Behold” Christ without Transubstantiation? "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." John 6:40

Can I call you Nicodemus?