FOUND ON THE SHROUD 
tsade-'aleph-waw *YOU WILL COME OUT*
Posted on 07/02/2010 4:43:38 AM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta
G-d forbids vicarious atonement.
G-d does not require a blood sacrifice.
G-d did not have relations with a mortal woman.
G-d does not permit the eating of human flesh or the drinking of Human blood.
G-d does not do away with the Sabbath.
G-d does not do away with Kashrut.(dietary laws)
G-d does not do away with circumcision.
G-d does not give us the law at Sinai, and for 1500 years let us stumble...just to prove a point....that is treachery.
G-d doesnt reveal Himself at Sinai..As HaShem Echad (One)...only to 1700 years later say...I am really three.
How do you read : Where does it say ha Followers of Yah'shua do not eat human flesh and drink human blood Here we agree; YHvH did not do away with Shabbat; Kashrut is not in the Tanach it is a Rabbinical Tradition only. How do you read Deu 30:6 There are not Three G-ds only Echad. Do not confuse nor conflate the followers of Yah'shua with the Roman "church".
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
TNK Genesis 22:2 And He said, "Take your son, your favored one, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the heights that I will point out to you."
Are not sin offerings by their very nature vicarious ? ve d relations with a mortal woman.
That is a Tradition of the Roman "church" it is not in scripture.
again it is a Tradition of the Roman "church" Deu 10:16
We as followers of Yah'shua are still bound by the Ten Words but are not condemned if we fail.
JPS Deuteronomy 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked. .
JPS Deuteronomy 30:6 And YHvH thy God will circumcise thy heart,
and the heart of thy seed, to love YHvH thy God with all thy heart,
and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
We seek salvation by calling on His SHEM YHvH be my salvation !
TNK Genesis 22:2 And He said, "Take your son, your favored one, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the heights that I will point out to you." Are not sin offerings by their very nature vicarious ?
Yes, all sin offerings are vicarious in nature...I should have been more specific....human vicarious atonement.
This is ultimately the lesson of the Akedah, the binding of Isaac. Here you have G-d, giving Abraham his tenth and final test. Telling the father to sacrifice his son. Yet, in Deuteronomy 24:16 it specifically says this:
The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the father. Every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
And Ezekiel 18 is all about the forbiding of human vicarious atonement.
...The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. That is the main lesson of the binding, since G-d forbids vicarious human atonement!
Unlike the pagan cultures at the time, where human sacrifice is common, you are to be different! You will sacrifice animals, not humans! This is reinforced in Deuteronomy, when God calls Human sacrifice something that He hates, and an abomination to Him
Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou inquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise. Thou shalt not do so unto the Eternal thy God: for every abomination to the Eternal, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods. [Deuteronomy 12:30-31]
They have offered human sacrifice and that is an abomination to the Eternal.
Jeremiah says the same thing when G-d tells him this:
Because they have forsaken me, and have estranged this place, and have burned incense in it unto other gods, whom neither they nor their fathers have known, nor the kings of Judah, and have filled this place with the blood of innocents; They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind: Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Eternal, that this place shall no more be called Tophet, nor The Valley of the Son of Hinnom, but The Valley of Slaughter. [Jeremiah 19:4-6]
And more: Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils, And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood. And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood. [Psalm 106:37-38]
And yet we are to then turn around and believe that God changed His mind, and required human sacrifice, and then it was the sacrifice of His own human son that God wanted? After telling the Jews to stay away from pagan practices, and pagan beliefs, God then changes His mind and says, "Okay, now go ahead and believe in a human sacrifice, just as these pagans believe?"
No! The binding of Isaac tells us exactly what G-ds plan is. Substitue with an animal.
It is also worth noting that Abraham brought a knife to cut the throat of Isaac on his alter at Mt Moriah. The very site where the Temple would later be built and animals sacrifices would occur.
If Jesus was to be the future Isaac, he should have been bound on the alter, his throat cut and his blood sprinkled on the alter, his fat burned. But he was not. He was not killed on the alter. He suffocated by crucifixion and didnt not die of sudden blood loss at the throat. His blood was retained inside his body, was not sprinkled on the alter and therefore was a nonkosher slaughter.
Kashrut is not in the Tanach it is a Rabbinical Tradition only.
Dietary laws? Lev 11, Lev 20, Deut 14...maybe your thinking of something different?
How do you read Deu 10:16 JPS Deuteronomy 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked. . Deu 30:6 JPS Deuteronomy 30:6 And YHvH thy God will circumcise thy heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love YHvH thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
The verses surrounding give us the answer.
Deut10: And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,
13 To keep the commandments of the LORD, and his statutes, which I command thee this day for thy good?
G-d is telling them: Dont rely on physical circumcision but also Spiritual circumcision, to love Him and do all that has been commanded..do not go after other gods....because if they blow it, they will be exiled!
Moses prophecies:
Deut 29: 25Then men shall say, Because they have forsaken the covenant of the LORD God of their fathers, which he made with them when he brought them forth out of the land of Egypt: 26For they went and served other gods, and worshipped them, gods whom they knew not, and whom he had not given unto them: 27And the anger of the LORD was kindled against this land, to bring upon it all the curses that are written in this book:
But G-d will gather in the exiles:
Deut 30: 3That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. 4If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee: 5And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers. 8And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day.
And just like the circumcision of the heart, they will get a heart of flesh in the messianic era.
And I shall give them one heart, and shall put a new spirit within them. And I shall take the heart of stone out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, that they may walk in My statutes and keep My ordinances, and do them. Then they will be My people, and I shall be their God. (Ezekiel 11:19-20)
But does this mean that circumcision is no longer a requirement? NO! As we see here in the future days of the 3rd and final temple.
EZEK 44:Thus saith the Lord GOD: No stranger, uncircumcised in heart and uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into My sanctuary, even any stranger that is among the children of Israel.
So, circumcision and the law also, will still be valid in the messianic era.
My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees. (Ezekiel 37:24)
And many peoples shall come, and say: "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; that he may teach us his ways and that we may walk in his paths," for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. (Isaiah 2:3)
And why is all this so important? What was the failure of the OT Israelites? The answer is given in the prophets.
Isaiah 1: 2Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me. 3The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master's crib: but Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider. 4Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.
AMOS:They trample on the heads of the poor as upon the dust of the ground and deny justice to the oppressed. You who turn justice into bitterness and cast righteousness to the ground
MICAH:Hear this, you leaders of the house of Jacob, you rulers of the house of Israel, who despise justice and distort all that is right;
This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'Administer true justice; show mercy and compassion to one another.
So, the prophets have condemned Israel, they have strayed from G-d, not followed His decrees, gone after other gods, opressed the poor, not provided justice, had no mercy and compassion. And hence, they were scattered among the nations.
But this time when Israel is gathered from the nations and Messiah comes....it will be different! That is what the new covenant is about.
Jeremiah 33: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
He repeats it differently in Jer 32:
39And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them: 40And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.
But does this mean that the law is finished? That sacrifices are finished? NO! Two chapters after Jeremiah says the law will be written in their hearts, he says this:
Jer 33: 15 " 'In those days and at that time I will make a righteous Branch sprout from David's line; he will do what is just and right in the land.
16 In those days Judah will be saved and Jerusalem will live in safety. This is the name by which it will be called: The LORD Our Righteousness.'
17 For this is what the LORD says: 'David will never fail to have a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel, 18 nor will the priests, who are Levites, ever fail to have a man to stand before me continually to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offerings and to present sacrifices.' " So, the law will be written in their hearts, Messiah ben David will do what is righteous and bring justice, the messianic rule will continue without interuption and sacrifices will return continuously! Wow!
Is this permanent? oh yeah...
19 The word of the LORD came to Jeremiah: 20 "This is what the LORD says: 'If you can break my covenant with the day and my covenant with the night, so that day and night no longer come at their appointed time, 21 then my covenant with David my servant—and my covenant with the Levites who are priests ministering before me—can be broken and David will no longer have a descendant to reign on his throne. 22 I will make the descendants of David my servant and the Levites who minister before me as countless as the stars of the sky and as measureless as the sand on the seashore.' "
The restored Israel will finally get it right! And the entire world will follow suit.
What’s next? Are you going to treat us to all of the competing interpretations of Hillel and Shammai about the proper fulfillment of all such rules and laws?
Feel free to leave me off your ping list.
You were copied on the post I was replying too. Whats with the attitude Christian?
Blasater,
Where in Scripture does it actually say that the *Messiah* has to fullfill all the prophecies in a certain amount of time?...Jesus Ministry was 3 years and he was crucified at 33.
Another Question:
As Jesus was a thorn in the *Pharisees* side about his teachings, when he was crucified and put into the tomb
Why not just make sure they could produce his body after the stone was removed? This would of ended all speculation that Jesus rose from the grave and this entire story would of went away.... Does Orthodox Judaism even know what happened to the body of Jesus?
Instead they let the Jews into the temple that believed Jesus as the Messiah...Not one Torah Observant Pharisee* said to any Jewish Person who said the Messiah Rose from the grave...*Look we produced the body of your Rabbi, he did not rise from the grave* They did not do this..Roman Guards, Pharisees were in place in front of the *Tomb* yet no body in the Grave....
Then we have the Shroud of Turin....Who is on that cloth? do you keep updated on the latest findings? Have you watched the *Fabric of Time* which has many well renowned Scientists, theologians *Jews and Christians* who are involved with the Shroud...
LASTLY:
How did the Disciples of Jesus know so much about the *last Days* that would come upon a generation like *Our’s*
were they psychic? was it coincidental? Did they just guess in 2000 years a *Generation* of people would live just like the people in the *Days of Noah*?
FOUND ON THE SHROUD tsade-'aleph-waw *YOU WILL COME OUT*
Plant images detected on the Shroud suggest that the Shroud originated in Jerusalem.....
All 28 plants grow in Israel. Of the 28 plants, 20 are known to grow in Jerusalem itself and 8 others grow in the vicinity in the Judean desert or the Dead Sea area.
Though some of these plants may be found in Europe, 14 of the 28 plants only grow in the Middle East and never in Europe.
Of the 28 plants, 27 bloom in the Springtime corresponding with the Jewish Passover.
Zygophyllum dumosum, for which there is pollen as well as an image, grows only in Israel, Jordan, and the Sinai.
The pollen grains were collected from the shroud some years ago.
His researchers also said a type of pollen from a thistle visible near the shoulder of the man’s image on the shroud was believed to have come from the plant used for Jesus’s crown of thorns.
Two pollen grains of this same species were also found on the another relic, the Sudarium of Oviedo, which is widely believed to have been Jesus’s face cloth at his burial.
That has been traced back to the 1st Century.
blasater1960 asked:
“Whats with the attitude Christian?”
To which I reply, you are the one who wrote:
“Every aspect of the man from Nazareth being The Messiah is a mirage.”
Do you really expect a good attitude from a Christian to whom you have said that? So, let’s not pretend we are surprised.
Again, let us refer to the rabbis:
"Remember unto us, Hashem our G-d, the covenant, the loving-kindness and the oath which you swore to Avraham our father on Mount Moriah. May the binding with which Avraham our father bound his son Yitzchak on the altar appear before you, how he overcame his compassion in order to do your will with a perfect heart." (From the Mussaf service on the 2nd Day of Yom Teruah)As My Jewish Learning points out, "But in traditional Jewish thought, the Akedah is used as a paradigm for Jewish martyrdom; the Jewish people are ready at all times to give up life itself for the sake of the sanctification of the divine name (Kiddush Ha-Shem)."Said R. Abbahu, “Why do we blow a ram’s horn? Said the holy one, blessed be he, ‘Blow a ram’s horn before me so that I will remember in your favor the binding of Isaac, the son of Abraham, and will credit [that act] to you, as though you bound yourselves [before me, willing to offer yourselves as a sacrifice].’” (b. Rosh Hashanah 16a)
The Lord will see this ‘akedah to forgive Israel every year and rescue them from trouble; so that it will be said, “On this day” in all coming generations, “on the mountain of the Lord is seen” the ashes of Yitzchak heaped up and serving for atonement. (Rashi)
[S]o when Yitzchak's children come to do sin and bad deeds, remind them of the binding of Yitzchak and rise from the throne of judgment and sit down on the throne of mercy." When? "In the seventh month." (VaYikra 23:24)
In the future God, will resurrect the dead because of the merit of Yitzchak, who sanctified himself on the altar, as it is written, "To hear the cry of the bounded one." (Pesiktah DeRav Kehanah)
Interestingly, there is are numerous midrashim that state that Isaac really did die, only to be resurrected:
Rabbi Yehudah said: Once the knife reached Yitzchak's throat, his soul fled. When God spoke from between the two Keruvim and said, "Do not raise your hand to the boy!" the soul returned to his body. He untied him and he stood on his feet, [then] Yitzchak knew that the resurrection of the dead was insured by the Torah, that in the future all the dead will be resurrected. Then he opened up and said, “Blessed are You, God, Who resurrects the dead.” (Pirkay DeRabbi Eliezer, ch. 31)See here for an interesting study of the resurrection motifs in the Akedat Yitzchak.
The point is that there's a lot more going on here than a simple repudiation of human sacrifice, and the rabbis know it. The anti-missionary reflex response to the claims of Yeshua shreds several centuries of rabbinnic wisdom and makes an ocean into a puddle in its zeal to reject the Man from Nazareth.
The kind of human sacrifice that the Tanakh rejects is the unwilling sacrifice of innocent men, women, and children to the pagan demons. However, the Tanakh and all of Judaism has always recognized the tzedakah inherant in one laying down one's own life to save another and the laying down of one's one life or even the lives of one's own children to Sanctify the Name (i.e., to let them be slain rather than turn from the True God).
You admit that the sacrifices of Israel were vicarious for the offerer--but since there have not been sacrifices for two thousand years, who or what do we have to take the place of we who have sinned against a Holy God?
Many Jews try to sweep this problem under the rug, but the fact that it remains a problem is demonstrated in the tradition of some Orthodox Jews to "sacrifice" a chicken on Yom Kippur with the prayer, ""This is my substitute, my vicarious offering, my atonement. This fowl shall meet death, but I shall enjoy a long, happy life."
So let's take all of the above together:
1) Sin requires atonement by vicarious sacrifice--this pattern was established all the way back in Eden and is recognized by Jews who slay a chicken on Yom Kippur in memory of the sacrifice of the Temple.Ergo, Judaism as taught by the ancient rabbis--rather than the shallow, reactionary Judaism of the anti-missionaries--would not have a problem with a truly righteous, even completely innocent man who laid down his own life to intercede for the guilty so that they could be reconciled to the Holy One--and in fact finds its prototype for such a sacrifice in the Akedat Yitzchak.2) Only an innocent can be a vicarious sacrifice for a sinner; that is why animals, which cannot sin, were used.
3) Judaism has always recognized that there is some manner of atonement in Isaac's sacrifice, even ascribing to it a resurrection.
4) Judaism has always recognized the virtue of a righteous man dying to save another.
5) Moreover, Judaism has always recognized that a righteous man can stand in the gap to turn away the wrath of a Holy God from those who have sinned against Him, as when Moses interceded for Israel after the golden calf.
The only problem is, where would one find such a man? Even Moses sinned before God. Even the Patriarchs did. There was never a Davidic King without sin--except one. And this righteous Man of the line of David, by accepting the rejection and shame of His people, even the shame of crucifixion, stood in the gap for you and me so that a fallen world could be reconciled to HaDin.
I do not want you, or any Jew, to become a Christian. I do look forward to the day, however, when all Israel looks on the One whom we pierced, a fount of forgiveness is opened to all our people, and the Sh'khinah returns to the place where the Eternal One has set His Reputation forever.
Shalom.
Wonderful Post!
Thank you, very informative!
Shalom to you!
Akedah is used as a paradigm for Jewish martyrdom
Only in so far as Abraham was willing and Isaac was willing to do as G-d commanded. G-d did not require the actual killing so that is the end of the comparision.
AS you know there are 4 means of Jewish exegesis. Peshat, Remez, Derash and Sod.
These midrashim are examples of Derash and Sod. They are not meant to be replacements for the Peshat or Plain Meaning. They are meant to expound upon potential deeper meanings. So, to bring up those and say the "Jews believe Isaac died and was resurrected" does not change the direct meaning of the passage.
the tzedakah inherant in one laying down one's own life to save another and the laying down of one's one life or even the lives of one's own children to Sanctify the Name (i.e., to let them be slain rather than turn from the True God).
Apples and Oranges. Those are not "sin sacrifices or guilt sacrifices" for a person or for all of mankind, that is martyrdom. People can be martyred all over the planet. It in no way atones per a sacrifice on the alter in the Temple.
but since there have not been sacrifices for two thousand years, who or what do we have to take the place of we who have sinned against a Holy God?
This was prophesied by Moses, Hosea and others.
Hosea 3:4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and [without] teraphim: [5] Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their G-d, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days. (KJV) So, what do we do?
Pray....Hosea 14:1 O Israel, return unto the LORD thy God; for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity. [2] Take with you words, and turn to the LORD: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive [us] graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips. (KJV) Repent.....Psalms 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give [it]: thou delightest not in burnt offering. [17] The sacrifices of G-d [are] a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O G-d, thou wilt not despise. (KJV)
Charity... Daniel 4:27 Wherefore, O king, let my counsel be acceptable unto thee, and break off thy sins by righteousness, and thine iniquities by shewing mercy to the poor; if it may be a lengthening of thy tranquillity. (KJV)
Exodus 30:16 And thou shalt take the atonement money of the children of Israel, and shalt appoint it for the service of the tabernacle of the congregation; that it may be a memorial unto the children of Israel before the LORD, to make an atonement for your souls. (KJV)
Fasting...prayer...repentance:Jonah 3 So the people of Nineveh believed G-d, and proclaimed a fast,.... But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto G-d: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands. [9] Who can tell if G-d will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not? [10] And G-d saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and G-d repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not. (KJV)
Prayer....2 chron 6:24 And if thy people Israel be put to the worse before the enemy, because they have sinned against thee; and shall return and confess thy name, and pray and make supplication before thee in this house; [25] Then hear thou from the heavens, and forgive the sin of thy people Israel, and bring them again unto the land which thou gavest to them and to their fathers. [26] When the heaven is shut up, and there is no rain, because they have sinned against thee; yet if they pray toward this place, and confess thy name, and turn from their sin, when thou dost afflict them; [27] Then hear thou from heaven, and forgive the sin of thy servants, and of thy people Israel,
Prayer and Teshuvah...If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their lands.
3) Judaism has always recognized that there is some manner of atonement in Isaac's sacrifice, even ascribing to it a resurrection.
Only in the midrashic "mystical" Sod sense. Not the plain meaning of the text.
4) Judaism has always recognized the virtue of a righteous man dying to save another.
Only in a martyrdom sense, such as warfare, preventing crime, dying for ones faith rather than being converted by the sword...etc. NEVER in a sin sacrifice, guilt sacrifice or ANY kind of alter sacrifice.
5) Moreover, Judaism has always recognized that a righteous man can stand in the gap to turn away the wrath of a Holy God from those who have sinned against Him, as when Moses interceded for Israel after the golden calf.
Not exactly, Moses did offer himself as an atonement and G-d said NO! These people will pay for their own sins!
Exodus 32:30 And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the Eternal; perhaps I shall make an atonement for your sin. And Moses returned unto the Eternal, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. And the Eternal said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. Therefore now go, lead the people unto the place of which I have spoken unto thee: G-d says no...you cant die for them...I'll deal with them...get back to work!
Judaism as taught by the ancient rabbis...would not have a problem with a truly righteous, even completely innocent man who laid down his own life to intercede for the guilty so that they could be reconciled to the Holy One--
For the reason stated above, they would not, that would be a human, vicarious atoning sacrifice and therefore prohibited. If G-d would have alowed such a thing, do to the importance of it, He would have said so plainly! But on the contrary, he says the opposite. Furthermore, a blood sacrifice is not even required.
Lev 5: 7 " 'If he cannot afford a lamb, he is to bring two doves or two young pigeons to the LORD as a penalty for his sin—one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering. 8 He is to bring them to the priest, who shall first offer the one for the sin offering. He is to wring its head from its neck, not severing it completely, 9 and is to sprinkle some of the blood of the sin offering against the side of the altar; the rest of the blood must be drained out at the base of the altar. It is a sin offering. 10 The priest shall then offer the other as a burnt offering in the prescribed way and make atonement for him for the sin he has committed, and he will be forgiven.
11 " 'If, however, he cannot afford two doves or two young pigeons, he is to bring as an offering for his sin a tenth of an ephah [a] of fine flour for a sin offering. He must not put oil or incense on it, because it is a sin offering. 12 He is to bring it to the priest, who shall take a handful of it as a memorial portion and burn it on the altar on top of the offerings made to the LORD by fire. It is a sin offering. 13 In this way the priest will make atonement for him for any of these sins he has committed, and he will be forgiven. The rest of the offering will belong to the priest, as in the case of the grain offering.' "
So, no humans allowed, no human vicarious allowed, no blood required.
Shalom The kind of human sacrifice that the Tanakh rejects is the unwilling sacrifice of innocent men, women, and children to the pagan demons.
The Tanakh never makes that distinction. For all we know, they were willing. Look at Islam today, their children willingly go to sacrifice themselves, as well as their adults.
So, no humans allowed, no human vicarious allowed, no blood required. YES...
However Jesus was not fully human...His father was *Heavenly* so that negates *Human Sacrafice*
G-D knew he was not *Killing* the Christ as *Obliteration
but as Sacrafice for Mankind..It was a *Gift Sacrafice*
G-D would of never had a *Full Human Being* to be sacraficed for other’s sins...
What is *Blood* it is the *life* for human exsistence that is why Blood was needed in this *Gift Sacrafice*
John the Evangelist says it was to fulfill Scripture:
“Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jews did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down.
The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other. But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.
The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe. These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,” and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.”
John 19:31-37
see Exodus 12:46; Numbers 9:12; Psalm 34:20
EXODUS 12:46
It is to be eaten in a single house; you are not to bring forth any of the flesh outside of the house, nor are you to break any bone of it.
NUMBERS 9:12
12’They shall leave none of it until morning, nor break a bone of it; according to all the statute of the Passover they shall observe it.
PSALM 34:20
He keeps all his bones,Not one of them is broken.
GOSPELS
John 19:33
but coming to Jesus, when they saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs.
JOHN 19:36
For these things came to pass (A)to fulfill the Scripture, “(B)NOT A BONE OF HIM SHALL BE BROKEN.”
However Jesus was not fully human...
According to Christian doctrine (and creeds) Jesus is 100% man and 100% God. This is called the hypostatic union. I think wiki has something on that. So, he would be a human sacrifice and I suppose technically a god sacrifice.
G-D would of never had a *Full Human Being* to be sacraficed for other’s sins...
Thats right! Thats is what G-d meant when He said....Do not offer the Eternal your G-d: for every abomination to the Eternal, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.
So dont offer me human sacrifice like those other people...I HATE IT!
What is *Blood* it is the *life* for human exsistence that is why Blood was needed in this *Gift Sacrafice*
The problem is that A) blood is not *required* for a sin scarifice. And B) Jesus died by suffocation not blood loss and his blood was not sprinkled on the alter. (not that it is allowed anyway) Lev 5:11
11 " 'If, however, he cannot afford two doves or two young pigeons, he is to bring as an offering for his sin a tenth of an ephah [a] of fine flour for a sin offering. He must not put oil or incense on it, because it is a sin offering. 12 He is to bring it to the priest, who shall take a handful of it as a memorial portion and burn it on the altar on top of the offerings made to the LORD by fire. It is a sin offering. 13 In this way the priest will make atonement for him for any of these sins he has committed, and he will be forgiven. The rest of the offering will belong to the priest, as in the case of the grain offering.' "
The bone passage in Psalms is not a messianic passage. And the look at him who they have pierced is (per the Jewish view) an event that has not happened yet. Zechariah 12:9
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look unto Me (G-d) because they have thrust him through; and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first-born.
11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart: the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
As you can see from verse 9, this is end times stuff. Hasnt happened yet. Verse 10, they (the people of Jerusalem) shall turn to G-d, because this "person" is thrust through, killed and the Jerusalemites will mourn as if their own child were killed. Verse 11, they shall mourn as Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. What happened in the valley of Megiddon? If you look it up, a Great General was killed in battle and placed upon his chariot and brought back. He was much beloved and the people were in mourning over this loss.
So, in the end of days, which we are in, the great war to take Jerusalem away from the Jews will occur. And someone, maybe a great general in the IDF, will be killed and the people will turn to G-d because of it...and mourn greatly for him.
watch video
LOL..TAR RAH!
Uh..Where to start...First has any fully human being died and found to be physically resurrected?
What do we know about the *Super-natural world*? I would say very little..We are human beings with 5 senses, well some say the have 6, anyway’s do Angels die? The first humans Adam had no human father but he physically died and stayed that way.... So how can you say Jesus was a human sacrafice if he is not buried somewhere? (ashes to ashes, dust to dust) *Blood* is the LIFE force for a human being, like Oil and Water is earths life force..Jesus said *I am the way, the truth and the *Life* (Blood) no one comes to the Father but by me*
PASSOVER: Jesus said this is my body and my blood for the forgiveness of sin..A GIFT)
End Time here is *prophetic* as to Messiah Jesus Christ.
9 “It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced (JESUS CHRIST).
Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. 11 “In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. Zechariah 12:9-14
Who do you think it is speaking of?
Oh..I know what I wanted to say to you...
Would a parent give a *Blood Transfusion* to save their child? Would a human being die to save their child..?
Do animals kill anyone who tries to hurt there babies? even if it is prey taking on a predator?
I think you would say *YES* of course...
SO why would G-D do any less for his children????
Are we not created in the image and likeness of Yaweh?
What makes us sacrafice ourselves for another *Love*
G-D loves us....What a wonderful gift blasater!
Can you or someone elaborate on the significance, please?
On what post Quix?
Recently? No, other than minutes or hours, not 3 or 4 days. Lazarus was 4 days (per christian belief) Both Elijah and Elisha in the "OT".
17 Now it happened after these things that the son of the woman who owned the house became sick. And his sickness was so serious that there was no breath left in him. 18 So she said to Elijah, "What have I to do with you, O man of God? Have you come to me to bring my sin to remembrance, and to kill my son?" 19 And he said to her, "Give me your son." So he took him out of her arms and carried him to the upper room where he was staying, and laid him on his own bed. 20 Then he cried out to the Lord and said, "O Lord my God, have You also brought tragedy on the widow with whom I lodge, by killing her son?" 21 And he stretched himself out on the child three times, and cried out to the Lord and said, "O Lord my God, I pray, let this child's soul come back to him." 22 Then the Lord heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came back to him, and he revived. 23 And Elijah took the child and brought him down from the upper room into the house, and gave him to his mother. And Elijah said, "See, your son lives!" 24 Then the woman said to Elijah, "Now by this I know that you are a man of God, and that the word of the Lord in your mouth is the truth."
2 KINGS 4:17-37 Elisha
...do Angels die?
Good question. I dont know.
Who do you think it is speaking of?
Well, like I said.... nobody knows yet because the battle for Jerusalem has not occured yet. Could be a much beloved IDF General...but that is a guess. It isnt Jesus though because it hasnt happened yet.
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