Posted on 11/05/2010 6:32:25 PM PDT by Colofornian
The issue first came up probably a year ago when the “bs” in a poster’s screen name was being upper-cased.
>>It’s easy ...just agree with James.. faith without works is dead...say it with me...<<
“Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” John 6:28-29
Hi Stourme,
This ties in directly with what Jesus taught in Matthew 25.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
“I was referring to the idea that if a man does not have any works how can he really even know for sure that he has any faith?”
Yes, I believe God is saying through James that if a man does not have any works (again, meaning obedient lifestyle), then he does not have the true faith, he has a useless, dead faith.
Yes, Paul and James said the same thing, just differently.
They are not going to contradict each other because God is the same ultimate author.
v. 18
1) Faith w/o works is dead
2) Faith is shown by works [by the life that is lived]
So, if you are truly reckoned righteous (justified), works (obedience) will prove your faith.
v. 19
1) The demons know God is God & they tremble
So, it’s not enough just to intellectually accept the fact that God exists, or Jesus saves you.
v. 20
1)Faith w/o works (obedience) is useless
To me, the key to understanding the passage is to understand the meaning of the word “justify” when connected with “works.”
v. 21 - 24
1) Abraham was justified by works when he offered up Isaac.
The word “justify” means to declare righteous; it also means to show to be righteous; in this context, it means to SHOW to be righteous.
[And since God clearly says that a person is saved (i.e., justified, sanctified, & glorified) by grace, through faith, and not works.]
2) Faith was working with his works, & the result is faith was perfected.
- Abraham’s works completed his faith.
- Abraham worked out what he believed; through his obedience he showed his faith to be real.
3) Abraham was justified by faith, that is, DECLARED righteous by God in Gen. 15
4) v. 24, “You see that a man is justified by works, and not be faith alone.
- “Justified” in the sense of SHOWN to be righteous; his deeds (obedience) proved his faith.
So, Abraham’s and Rahab’s (v. 25) obedience proves their faith.
There is going to be a time when all men’s deeds will be judged, Romans 2:6-13.
And re: your final point,
yes, love being the greatest commandment and named first in the fruit of the Spirit in Galatians 5, is certainly one work of obedience that is dependent on His grace and power, that proves a person belongs to Jesus. And how often we fall short of loving the way Jesus loved—with a person’s highest good in mind.
Feeding the hungry and clothing naked is not what saves you. It’s an indication of whether you faith is real. If your salvation is dependent on something you do you are going to lose. Even our best deeds are as filthy rags and will avail nothing from a salvation perspective.
“I don’t consider initials to be tinkering. If someone calls you “ampu,” that is not tinkering with your screen name. However, if someone calls you “Perfect Onion” that would be tinkering.”
May I ask why this doesn’t fall into the category of “must have thick skin”.
I don’t care if anyone does call me Perfect Onion, exactly
because I have thick skin, as required to participate in
this forum.
It would appear to the non-professional observer that you
are giving stourme a pass on the thick skin guideline...
best,
perfect onion
“is this not an accusation and motive, mind reading...
labeling and assigning things to LDS even if don’t fit!”
What is it with the undergarment crowd on this thread???
Too tight? Too hot? Too full of perspiration??
What happened to the “thick skin” requirement that is posted
on the guidelines page.
Now everyone wants to whine and complain about everything...
Jeesh!
ampu
Stourme...
You made a claim and accused me of misreading the Bible.
I pointed out that Christ died for the UNGODLY, as the
Bible clearly says.
You were wrong. Yet you skipped right over that and kept
going.
Are YOU willing to recognize YOU are UNGODLY?
Or do YOU reject the clear message of the Gospel of Grace?
best,
ampu
Stourme Logic 101
“Thank you for coming to class today. As your professor,
I have a simple lesson I’d like to present. Today we are
covering:
“Stourme Principle of Logic #1:”
“Wet streets cause rain.”
“Yes, I realize it seems counterintuitive to those who
actuallytry to understand the Bible!! Don’t do that. It’s
a waste of time. Let’s see how we can use this principle
to find mormonic doctrine in the Bible.
“First, we find a Bible passage that sounds like what we
want it to say, but the context is troublesome. BUT, once
we apply the Stourme Principle of Logic #1 ...
“VOILA!!!!! With out feeding the hungry and clothing the naked you cannot be saved!”
“See how easy it is to make the Bible say what you wanted
it to say anyway!”
“Class dismissed.”
“Oh, wait, a question. Please do not pester me with questions.
Once the teacher has spoken, the thinking is done!”
Dismissed!
To your examples, I'd like to point out that God didn't "need" Moses to lift his arm to part the Red Sea either. But with the Red Sea ahead and the Egyptians closing in on them, the Hebrews needed that faith experience.
Indeed, I'm confident that God engineers our circumstances in this mortal life so that we can mature - learning moment by moment to love Him, believe Him and trust Him.
Also, concerning "good works" I'd like to point out that man, particularly Christians, should never take credit for such things. All glory goes to God for without Him we can do nothing.
Therefore when thou doest [thine] alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly. - Matthew 6:1-4
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [thee] drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took [thee] in? or naked, and clothed [thee]? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me.
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. - Matthew 25:31-46
Yes, I believe God is saying through James that if a man does not have any works (again, meaning obedient lifestyle), then he does not have the true faith, he has a useless, dead faith.
But after i started to church, religion took over and i quit doing those things that i had been doing, i started thinking that i had no part with people that did not go to church.
But after i got into the Bible a little more i realized that i had been living a life that God would more likely have approved of before i started going to church than i was after i started going to church, because i was trying to make a religion out of it, and of course i had a lot of help from the church on that part.
Abraham was called a friend of God because he was counted righteous because he showed God his faith by his works, but even his works was not enough, he still had to follow Jesus into glory as the rest of Gods early men of God did.
I do not have time to look up the scripture but, but i believe it says something to the affect that none are worthy, we can only be saved by the blood of the lamb.
Since every church has a different doctrine, every one can be wrong, but every one can not be right, so it has to be a personal faith in God and in his son.
The duty of the church was to spread the gospel to all the world and the gospel has been taught in all of the world.
If it was to be taught by only one denomination we would only have one church, the churches that have taught the gospel are teaching the gospel in spite of all of their false doctrine.
I have only come into contact with one church that i mostly agree with and they do not say they are the only true church and in fact they will tell you that you do not even have to go to church to be saved.
They do not collect Tithes and do not believe Christian churches have the commandment nor the authority to collect them.
Could tithes have something to do with other churches telling people they needed to come to church to be saved?
Just my idea and have a great day.
.
Lurkers will note that stourme has now avoided responding to his error twice now. Standard mormon apologist standard - a double standard - without which they’d have no standards at all.
Lurkers will note that stourme is resorting to obfuscation and misdirection when faced with irrefutable biblical truth - just like he did with Romans 5:6-8 (to which he has not offered either an apology for or adequate answer to myself or AMPU)
Classical case of ignoring the context to fixate on the few verses to the exclusion of the context they are placed within. Now the claim is that the only way to be saved is to feed and clothe the poor/hungry. If that is the case, there is no need for mormon temples, necro dunks and all the other bizarre ordinances and laws of mormonism.
Context clearly states James is speaking to BELIEVERS, not those trying to become godly enough to be worthy of salvation (Lurkers will begin to see stourme's argument unravel). What comes first - Faith, NOT works, works always come after faith. Mormonism places works first, then if good enough, faith.
Just like the failed argument that Jesus didn't die for the ungodly, stourme tries another fallacious argument, requiring care for the poor for salvation.
stourme would be better off with klingon
I agree with you AMPU, this should certainly come under the "thick skin" rule....and I certainly don't see what there is about "Stormy" that would cause such angst.
Especially when ALL of the Inmans have personally been called much worse by Restornu, time after time.
BTW, moderator, I would remind you of the pass that was given to this person on his use of brackets to post insulting little digs. Thin-skin, indeed!
I suggest that 1. We stop replying to the posts of the thin-skinned one; or 2; We just don't use the name of same.
I see this is another link in the chain of evidence that the FR mormons are becoming desperate in their inability to dodge the factual evidence being posted about their arcane beliefs.
This particular whine is completely ridiculous and totally laughable.
It is a spiritual clue that conviction is happening. The human nature approach is to associate the condemnation out as from others, as if under assault from without, when the whisper of the Holy Spirit is first heard within. The next step is bold stubborness, to refuse to even read that which does the continuing work of conviction. If a further progress is to happen, it is God’s Spirit Who will accomplish it. And like with any unruly child (like the little boy in the story offered to Stourme earlier), waiting for conviction to do its thing is the only way to deal with such rebellion. So long as the Hound of Heaven continues to pursue, there is hope for the lost. Paul taught that we ought be ever ready to offer the hope that is WITHIN us, thus to the unsaved we must be ever ready to rerspond with love. It is to the fellow born again that we use shunning and disciplnary measures. Paul was clear in his message to Timothy (2Tim), those who continue in false doctrine, seeking to lead the elect away from Truth and growth in His Spirit, from such turn away. Are we there yet? ... I hope not.
Then, the LDS bashing became 'en vogue' and Jim not only supported it, he joined in.
So, we have stopped donating money, and use this site primarily as a news source. Perhaps other's may chose to do the same.
Why would anyone donate money to a site that opts to attack their church? This has nothing to do with politics, and everything to do with stoking a precious few egos.
[Normandy]
Hi Stourme,
This ties in directly with what Jesus taught in Matthew 25.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Pingaling, Jim. Looks like this poster has pinged the entire Mormon list, so this is not some isolated incident to be ignored. This poster is ‘inviting’ the rest of the Mormon contingency to ‘defund’ FreeRepublic because the Mormons are no more protected than the Catholics, or Methodists, or Presbyterians, or atheists, or anti-birthers, or God only knows whom when such a whine arises.
So, we have stopped donating money, and use this site primarily as a news source.
Great, a self-admitted parasite with thin skin.
Why would anyone donate money to a site that opts to attack their church? This has nothing to do with politics, and everything to do with stoking a precious few egos.
So, are you saying open debate in the Religion Forum upsets you to the point that you become a FREEloader on FReeRepublic? Nice!
I quite well remember the time when the mormons used FR as just another one of their proselytizing tools, without much rebuttal. Sorry you guys have to depend on the untold millions of dollars spent on PR firms, missionaries, the internet sites.
FR just isn't your recruiting tool anymore.
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