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To: HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg
Thank you for that (really, I'm not sarcastic with those like you, who sincerely wish to civilly discuss/debate/teach).

The excerpt you excerpted says
And yet the former, because they willed, believed; the latter, because they did not will believed not. Therefore mercy and judgment were manifested in the very wills themselves
as you said "According to Augustine's logic, men believe because God prepares the will".

This is Catholic doctrine Catechism
The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus' proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."Mt 4:17 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high.

When God touches man's heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God's grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God's sight
The Church teaches God's grace is necessary to enable man to be lifted out of sin

Note that Augustine does not have the belief that one cannot lose one's salvation
2,128 posted on 01/30/2011 11:51:57 AM PST by Cronos
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To: Cronos; HarleyD; metmom; RnMomof7

lol. So you’re now agreeing with the Protestant view that Augustine was a predestinarian.

Progress.

Regarding irresistible grace, if God sends the Holy Spirit to turn a man’s heart from sin to love of Christ, who is stronger? That man or the Holy Spirit?

The RCC believes that man is stronger than both the Holy Spirit and the specific intention of God.

That is laughable. My vote goes to the Holy Spirit and the will of God. If God has numbered a man to be among His family, that man will, at a time of God’s choosing, know his salvation has been won for Him by Christ alone, and thus he will believe, repent and obey to the saving of his soul. True faith and repentance to the acknowledging of our sins and obedience to His word are all free gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Christ alone. No “co-redeemer” nor “alter Christus” required.


2,130 posted on 01/30/2011 12:01:48 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Cronos; Dr. Eckleburg
You wrote:

But your quote is from the Catholic Catechism. The Catholic Catechism is not what Augustine wrote. In fact, Augustine's document is at odds with this Catechism.

I will admit there may be some writing of Augustine that state that a person must persevere or do a bunch of works. But Augustine wrote the Perseverance of the Saints late in life after he came to the realization of this truth. While he declares that he recalled all of his books to be burned, I'm sure not everything was burned. So you have to put his writings on a timeline with this being one of his last (and greatest I might add) works. It's his spiritual growth.

Augustine's work was never accepted in the Church and most tend to ignore it. However, Augustine's argument for God changing the will is overwhelming and compelling. His reference to Cyprian teaching him this truth illustrates that 1) this was a view held by senior members in the Church, and 2) it was a difficult teaching to grasp.

2,139 posted on 01/30/2011 12:36:10 PM PST by HarleyD
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