Posted on 01/21/2011 12:26:40 PM PST by marshmallow
The Catholic doctrine of the Eucharist is a real stumbling block to some Protestants who are seriously considering Catholicism. It was for me too, until I explored the subject, historically and scripturally. What follows is a summary of my deliberations.
Catholicism holds that bread and wine literally become the body and blood of Christ when they are consecrated by the priest celebrating the Mass. Oftentimes non-Catholics get hung up on the term transubstantiation, the name for the philosophical theory that the Church maintains best accounts for the change at consecration. The Church’s explanation of transubstantiation was influenced by Aristotle’s distinction between substance and accident.
Aristotle (384-322 B.C.), like most philosophers of his time, wanted to account for how things change and yet remain the same. So, for example, a “substance” like an oak tree remains the same while undergoing “accidental” changes. It begins as an acorn and eventually develops roots, a trunk, branches, and leaves. During all these changes, the oak tree remains identical to itself. Its leaves change from green to red and brown, and eventually fall off. But these accidental changes occur while the substance of the tree remains.
On the other hand, if we chopped down the tree and turned into a desk, that would be a substantial change, since the tree would literally cease to be and its parts would be turned into something else, a desk. According to the Church, when the bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ, the accidents of the bread and wine do not change, but the substance of each changes. So, it looks, tastes, feels, and smells like bread and wine, but it literally has been changed into the body and blood of Christ. That’s transubstantiation.
There are several reasons why it would be a mistake to dismiss transubstantiation simply because of the influence of Aristotle on its formulation. First, Eastern Churches in communion with the Catholic Church rarely employ this Aristotelian language, and yet the Church considers their celebration of the Eucharist perfectly valid. Second, the Catholic Church maintains that the divine liturgies celebrated in the Eastern Churches not in communion with Rome (commonly called “Eastern Orthodoxy”) are perfectly valid as well, even though the Eastern Orthodox rarely employ the term transubstantiation. Third, the belief that the bread and wine are literally transformed into Christ’s body and blood predates Aristotle’s influence on the Church’s theology by over 1000 years. For it was not until the thirteenth century, and the ascendancy of St. Thomas Aquinas’ thought, that Aristotle’s categories were employed by the Church in its account of the Eucharist. In fact, when the Fourth Lateran Council (1215) employed the language of substantial change, St. Thomas had not even been born!
It was that third point that I found so compelling and convinced me that the Catholic view of the Eucharist was correct. It did not take long for me to see that Eucharistic realism (as I like to call it) had been uncontroversially embraced deep in Christian history. This is why Protestant historian, J. N. D. Kelly, writes: “Eucharistic teaching, it should be understood at the outset, was in general unquestioningly realist, i.e., the consecrated bread and wine were taken to be, and were treated and designated as, the Savior’s body and blood.” I found it in many of the works of the Early Church Fathers, including St. Ignatius of Antioch (A.D. 110), St. Justin Martyr (A.D. 151), St. Cyprian of Carthage, (A. D. 251), First Council of Nicaea (A. D. 325), St. Cyril of Jerusalem (A. D. 350), and St. Augustine of Hippo (A. D. 411) . These are, of course, not the only Early Church writings that address the nature of the Eucharist. But they are representative.
This should, however, not surprise us, given what the Bible says about the Lord’s Supper. When Jesus celebrated the Last Supper with his disciples (Mt. 26:17-30; Mk. 14:12-25; Lk. 22:7-23), which we commemorate at Holy Communion, he referred to it as a Passover meal. He called the bread and wine his body and blood. In several places, Jesus is called the Lamb of God (John 1: 29, 36; I Peter 1:19; Rev. 5:12). Remember, when the lamb is killed for Passover, the meal participants ingest the lamb. Consequently, St. Paul’s severe warnings about partaking in Holy Communion unworthily only make sense in light of Eucharistic realism (I Cor. 10:14-22; I Cor. 11:17-34). He writes: “The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? . . . Whoever, therefore eats and drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord.” (I Cor. 10:16; 11:27)
In light of all these passages and the fact that Jesus called himself the bread of life (John 6:41-51) and that he said that his followers must “eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood” (John 6:53), the Eucharistic realism of the Early Church, the Eastern Churches (both in and out of communion with Rome), and the pre-Reformation medieval Church (fifth to sixteenth centuries) seems almost unremarkable. So, what first appeared to be a stumbling block was transformed into a cornerstone.
Francis J. Beckwith is Professor of Philosophy and Church-State Studies at Baylor University. He tells the story of his journey from Catholicism to Protestantism and back again in his book, Return to Rome: Confessions of An Evangelical Catholic. He blogs at Return to Rome.
Your long post is no problem at all and thanks.
In deed, no human priest can claim to offer Christ on any altar that altar being heavenly.
Wow, wow, wow. Thanks, Quix, you said,
= = =
Well I’ve been posting more than a line or two of their doctrines and still makes no difference to them what their own stuff is saying. Astounding denial! Most recently I’m being told I ‘do not grasp their History’, which I suspect is yet again a denial and avoidance to see what’s so clearly presented by their own doctrines.
As a psychologist . . . I rate their !!!!DENIAL!!!! on a par with that of the alcoholic bloke court ordered into our program on an 8th or 9th DUI. On one of his earlier DUI’s he’d been hospitalized and his life hanging. On another of his earlier DUI’s a mother and her kids were hospitalized. The first words out of his mouth when it came time for him to introduce himself were:
“I don’t need to be here.
I don’t have an alcohol problem!”
Only with RC’s of the Vatican AIWSOTARM edifice, it’s:
“WE DON’T HAVE A PAGAN PROBLEM!”
While continuing to
24/7/365
PAGAN SPEW! PAGAN SPEW! PAGAN SPEW!
And when we document it from their own official writings,
They drag out their Vatican AIWSOTARM DAFFYNITIONARY and call black, white; white, black; up, down; left, right; good evil and evil good.
THEN they act incredulous and all prissy and self-righteous about how Proddys just DON’T GET IT.
MAY GOD have mercy and PREVENT us from !EVER! GETTING such spiritually hazardous, unBiblical, corrosive, destructive, horse feathers from hell!
May all of good heart seriously seeking God be delivered out of such a maze of horrors.
= = =
End quote, thanks Quix, brilliant, may the Lord deliver all those who call on HIS NAME.
Wow. That is an astounding conclusion not supported by Scripture in the slightest.
Rome just makes things up.
That frustrateth the tokens of the liars, and maketh diviners mad; that turneth wise men backward, and maketh their knowledge foolish" -- Isaiah 44:24-25 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
Another good one.
It is no longer the believer who lives, but Christ lives in them, and the life that they now live in the flesh, they live by faith in the Son of God, Who loved us and gave Himself for us.
That was great.
Thank you.
To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen." -- Jude 1:24-25"Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
THANKS for your kind encouragements and responses.
matthew 26
14 Then one of the twelve, whose name was Judas Iscariot, went to the chief priests 15 and said, “What will you give me if I deliver him over to you?”
And they paid him thirty pieces of silver. 16 And from that moment he sought an opportunity to betray him.
Of course that was the reason. It's right there in black and white. And yet even then, Rome has to fabricate foolish, superstitious excuses for Judas' betrayal.
one Lord one faith one baptism has posted a number of quotes from documents and while citing the document, does not post where the document was found - posts 812, 815, 821, for example.
Is there a risk of copyright violations doing that as well?
Ancient documents, I realize, would not have intellectual property rights as modern ones would, but what about the persons or organizations holding them?
Should there be links provided even in those cases?
see also #818. It is from a web site unattributed.
Repeating a lie does not make truth. Sorry. But it doesn’t.
The scripture you quoted is twisted and taken out of context, as noted.
Now. Anything substantial? Anything that supports it?
No.
Next.
Hoss
Dr. Eckleburg and others give the source for quotes, but do not always give a website from which they are cut and pasted. At one time, I asked for the web address from which a lengthy quote was posted, and was told by the poster to "look it up yourself" since the source was given. I was able to find it, but if we are going to have to give the web addresses, then there are a LOT of posts that will need them.
yes, really , if they wrote the bible, as they claim, you’d think they could keep the facts straight
From my vantage point,
It tends to chronically appear that humans have an inherent compulsion to make talismen out of all manner of objects, rituals, symbols etc. How to talk about this may be tricky, but as usual, I'm brazen enough to try. I think this is true of all humans, all Christians. Nevertheless, the Vatican AIWSOTARM system has evolved such compulsions to a hideous black art form.
A slight caveat. I'm not trying to say that God's power is never invested, anointed over, saturating objects. The bones of the prophet could be a case in point to the contrary. Paul's handkerchief/cloths, another.
Nevertheless, God saw to it that even the Ark of the Covenant, for the present, is unavailable. That supreme object-location of YAWEH'S DIVINE MANIFEST PRESENCE is not currently available.
And, RC VAIWSOTARM sensibilities aside, Mary is a poor ark.
And, it's been said that if all the splinters of The Cross were collected, there'd be enough wood to build a new Noah's Ark.
We are a mortal people grounded in tangible reality focused on OBJECTS all our waking hours and resting on objects when we are asleep. We are inescapably OBJECT ORIENTED.
Initially, God wanted a more or less face to face sort of dialogue with each Israeli at the TENT OF MEETING. They would have none of it and demanded that Moses do the professional RELIGIOUS duties for them. Chickens. Wimps. Humans.
I think that's why Moses' body was taken by God. He wanted no one bowing down to Moses corpse. Or worse, their tearing it apart for bits of Moses' bones--talismen to be carried around their necks on gold chains.
We love talismen because WE CONTROL THEM--we carry them, fondle them, caress them, kiss them, loft them, adore them, venerate them, worship them [DUMB! DOH!], MANIPULATE THEM--pretend we manipulate God with them.
YAWEH was not in the thunder . . . nor in the lightening . . . nor in the wind . . . but in HIS STILL SMALL VOICE.
He IS a jealous God. It is OFFENSIVE TO HIM for us to focus on ANY SUBSTITUTE.
HE WANTS DIALOGUE, A DANCE, PERSONAL INTIMACY INDIVIDUAL TO HIM. HE WANTS IT AT THE COST OF HIS OWN ONLY SON. WHAT BIGGER STATEMENT CAN HE MAKE ABOUT THAT???
Yet in our arrogant insecure prissyness, humans are so compulsively prone to acquiring, taking on, making talismen as substitutes. We feel comforted that we can HANDLE, DO, MANIPULATE some purported 'God thing' and pretend that we can even manipulate God with the THING.
God is merciful and when hearts are right, and earnestly toward and for Him, He MAY ignore some minor degrees of such around the edges.
ON THE WHOLE, IT'S AN OFFENSIVE STENCH.
And to end up doing it with the elements of communion has to be a serious travesty of major proportions.
HE WANTS ONGOING DAILY DIALOGUE INDIVIDUAL PERSON TO HIM. NOTHING between. Certainly no tangible OBJECTS between.
HEART TO HEART IS HIS PREFERENCE AND HIS REQUIREMENT.
Humans are foolish to pretend anything else is good, much less wonderful.
All this business about "aids to worship" is likewise nonsense. The Pagans say the same thing. God will have none of it. Weasel worded rationalizations have never impressed God.
And, Proddys can be ALMOST as awash in such stuff as RC's with particular denomninational symbols, forms, rituals, customs and the like. Thankfully, most of us don't fixate on crackers and juice as our bits of Christ to play mental games with.
May God show each individual with a heart truly after HIM--what HIS priorities are for in each of our lives and particularly for our DANCE WITH HIM.
Judith Anne, a poster may be using a printed manuscript as a source even though the material is online. Posters do not need to search the web to see if there is a url for what they want to post from a book or magazine. However, if it is apparent that posters are quoting and sourcing from websites without giving the urls (obviously not a printed manuscript source) then let me know because it wastes moderator time - which is not a good idea.
Amen!
Thank you so much for your encouragements, dear sister in Christ!
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