The Church Fathers-Mary: Without Sin

As I said, bb

We in orthodoxy hold that:

The Bible is God-breathed
The Bible is inerrant i.e. without any error
The Bible is the source of doctrines of the Christian faith and the standard of faith
There is nothing "missing" as in sources of fundamental belief of God as opposed to authority in discernemtn in scripture
No "other source" bare Apostolic Tradition is anywhere near the level of authority and even A.T. though it is the original "pool" is still subservient to scripture.

We differ with you on the

sola i.e. only bit, and on
the sole "authority (as it is not a rule book)" and the "all" doctrines.

the authority bit is the easiest to explain why sola scriptura is wrong -- because the Bible is not a rule book especially the NT, there are positions that are clear and positions that if one takes in isolation can lead to wrong, conflicting conclusions (double-predestination as the best example), some more being

does sola scriptura say one should believe in something as basic as Jesus was always God (Trinitarian position) or that Jesus Christ was man made God (Oneness PENTECOSTAL Protestant position) or the Angel Michael (Seventh Day Adventist Ellen G White teaching) note this is fundamental belief
Does sola scriptura say that there is the REAL Presence of Christ in the Eucharist (Lutheran, some Anglicans, maybe even Methodists), or is it just a symbol (Calvinists) another fundamental belief
Does sola scriptura say that one MUST talk in tongues (Oneness Pentecostal) to display faith or not?
Is Baptism for the remission of sins (Lutheran or Methodism) or not (say Baptist?)
Does sola scriptura say that Baptism is for infants and sufficient (Presbyterian etc.) or not (Baptists)? Does sola scriptura say that Jesus came only for the salvation of a few (Calvinists) or he was Savior of the world (everyone else)?
Does sola scriptura agree or disagree with soul sleep? (Calvin: "As long as (the soul) is in the body it exerts its own powers; but when it quits this prison-house it returns to God, whose presence, it meanwhile enjoys while it rests in the hope of a blessed Resurrection. This rest is its paradise. On the other hand, the spirit of the reprobate, while it waits for the dreadful judgment, is tortured by that anticipation. . .", Psychopannychia,
Does sola scriptura agree or disagree with worshipping on a Sunday (Presbyterians, Pentecostals etc.) or not (Seventh Day Adventists say it is the sign of the beast)
Does sola scriptura agree with the Adventists that one should follow kosher laws or not?
Does sola scriptura believe that we still have spiritual gifts like prophecy amongst us (Pentecostals) or not (Presbyterians)
Does sola scriptura say that there is no free will (Calvinism) or that man has free will (Mennonites)
Does sola scriptura say that it is faith + works (Mennonites: Menno Simons told the followers of Luther and Calvin: “If you wish to be saved, you must walk in the way of the Lord, hear His Word, and obey it. For nothing avails in heaven nor on earth unto salvation, … not even Christ with His grace, merit, blood, and death, if we are not born of God, … if we do not believe His Word sincerely, and if we do not walk in the light and do right. As John says: …>If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie.’” (Complete Writings of Menno Simons, p. 208)) or not?
Does sola scriptura say that there is imputed righteousness (Calvinism) or not (Mennonites)

Note, all of these are basic, fundamental beliefs, not additional beliefs and by referring to various passages in isolation, different practioners of sola scriptura arrive at different conclusions.

Also, do note that each of these groups uses an "authority" other than scripture to prove it's point to the detriment of others - even down to the individual persons who argue with each other on fundamentals -- each uses an "authority" that is not the Bible alone, that is not sola scriptura to justify their point

The second point, we have argued about this before ad nauseum and reached no conclusion but we can agree to disagree. I will only point out that

There is nothing "missing" as in sources of fundamental belief of God as opposed to authority in discernemtn in scripture
No "other source" bare Apostolic Tradition is anywhere near the level of authority and even A.T. though it is the original "pool" is still subservient to scripture.

Remember "Holy Tradition" does not include in any way vestments or celibacy or forms of respect to saints. -- To say that one must derive from Scripture alone all of the theological truths that God wished to reveal to mankind—and even all of the religious practices in which Christians should engage (i.e., that Scripture is "sufficient for faith and practice") is demonstrably wrong --> and if I am not mistaken, you do not take this extreme point of view, correct?

Apostolic Tradition includes such points as against contraception or the sacrament of confession (which you do disagree with, I know), etc.

Yet, honestly, isn't even "sola scriptura" a tradition that "if its not in the Bible, we do not believe" -- a tradition that leads to all of the above differences in fundamental beliefs and even to the extreme points of the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses taking the same points to extreme (because each interprets differently -- perhaps more the Jehovah's witnesses than Mormons).

Is it not true that many times a practitioner of sola scriptura will say the Bible is "unclear" on something to allow for differing opinion and interpretations? Yet, how does that square with "Scripture is the authority and source of all doctrines of the Christian faith" if you have "unclear" points?

Let's just take the point of John 3:5 where Jesus tells Nicodemus that he must be "born of the water and of the spirit" -- does that mean:

Born of birth amniotic liquid? Hence that means that spirits must be born on earth (and I've heard Freepers putting this argument forth)
Just a spiritual Baptism?
Baptismal water and Holy Spirit's action through this?

Each of these views is held by various practitioners of sola scriptura, and this is a fundamental belief, mind you.

Which of these is true? All three can't be at the same time true as they are contradictory

Jesus would have explained what He meant to His disciples and Nicodemus who would have explained it down to THEIR disciples and so on and so forth ("ok, Druselius, now I was taught by Antonicus who was taught by Marius who was taught by Ignatius who was taught by Polycarp who was taught by John the Apostle who was taught by Jesus that this passage here means.....").

There is no doubt that Christ taught His disciples, scripture even points out that He taught them post His resurrection, yet those points are not in scripture, so what are they? Maybe a detailed set of what the words given earlier really meant? Most likely because the Apostles and the ones following them were always clear to say that they learnt from so-and-so Apostle

Paul made it clear when he says not to say "I am of Apollo, I am of Paul but of Christ" that the focus should be on the ultimate teacher of the teachers, not that he is against people sticking to the rule of what was taught by their teachers. In fact he urges people to stick to what they were taught and to hand that down to others. That is the basic definition of Holy Tradition -- the teachings from the Ultimate Teacher through a succession of teachers, all lesser -- it doesn't matter about the character of the intervening teachers, what matters is the Truth is pure and it is pure because it comes from the Ultimate Teacher who is pure. -- Now remember the Bible is utterly accurate, yet, besides as shown above not giving the exact meaning of certain points, it does not say a lot about some things either - how did Early Christians worship? What were the rules for this worship, the manner in which this worship was carried out?

The Bible does not say anything about this, yet we have an external work dating from 70 AD (Apostolic times), the Didache which does just that (in fact it possibly predates Revelations)

What does it say?

Chapter 6: "See that no one causes you to err from this way of The Teaching" -- note, the Teaching as handed down from Ultimate Teacher to teacher to teacher.
Chapter 7: "And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, Matthew 28:19 in living water. But if you have not living water, baptize into other water; and if you can not in cold, in warm. But if you have not either, pour out water thrice upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit."
and more to the point of worship Chapter 9: The Thanksgiving Now concerning the Thanksgiving thus give thanks. First, concerning the cup: We thank you, our Father, for the holy vine of David Your servant, which You made known to us through Jesus Your Servant; to You be the glory for ever. And concerning the broken bread: We thank You, our Father, for the life and knowledge which You made known to us through Jesus Your Servant; to You be the glory for ever. Even as this broken bread was scattered over the hills, and was gathered together and became one, so let Your Church be gathered together from the ends of the earth into Your kingdom; for Yours is the glory and the power through Jesus Christ for ever. But let no one eat or drink of your Thanksgiving (Eucharist), but they who have been baptized into the name of the Lord; for concerning this also the Lord has said, Give not that which is holy to the dogs.
Chapter 10: "But after you are filled, thus give thanks: We thank You, holy Father, for Your holy name which You caused to tabernacle in our hearts, and for the knowledge and faith and immortality, which You made known to us through Jesus Your Servant; to You be the glory for ever. You, Master almighty, created all things for Your name's sake; You gave food and drink to men for enjoyment, that they might give thanks to You; but to us You freely gave spiritual food and drink and life eternal through Your Servant. Before all things we thank You that You are mighty; to You be the glory for ever. Remember, Lord, Your Church, to deliver it from all evil and to make it perfect in Your love, and gather it from the four winds, sanctified for Your kingdom which You have prepared for it; for Yours is the power and the glory for ever. Let grace come, and let this world pass away. Hosanna to the God (Son) of David! If any one is holy, let him come; if any one is not so, let him repent. Maran atha. Amen. But permit the prophets to make Thanksgiving as much as they desire."
Chapter 14: But every Lord's day gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one that is at variance with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned. For this is that which was spoken by the Lord: In every place and time offer to me a pure sacrifice; for I am a great King, says the Lord, and my name is wonderful among the nations.

And this is how we worship today, just as we were taught right back to the Apostles (1 Tim 3:15 15But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.)

I'm sorry, but 2ndAmmama, you have been wrongly informed. Church teaching is all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body
the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church

All Salvation comes from Christ the head. This is what Christ said "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me" (John 14:6)

you and I will agree that the salvation is freely granted by God,

jesus also points out the means for salvation:

Mark 16:16 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Luke 13:3 3I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
John 6:54 54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

This is what Christ tells us in scripture

Also note that Christ during his time told the Samaritan woman in John 4 that she needed to go to the Body of believers at that time (the Jews), the means.

The only one who gives salvation and eternal life is Jesus, as He Himself said

Mark 16:16 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Luke 13:3 3I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
John 6:54 54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

ping to post

I will concede that the battle has been lost

not quite, not yet...