Posted on 05/16/2011 10:48:24 AM PDT by bronxville
“What are you talking about?”
Baptist Hide and Seek
[...]Remember: Most clergy child molesters have never been convicted of anything. Of all the Catholic priests who have been removed from ministry, only 3 percent were able to be criminally prosecuted and only 2 percent were ever jailed. If Catholics themselves had not taken action - finally - over 700 child molesting priests would still be working in ministry. The largest Protestant denomination needs to do something about this problem as well.[...]
http://stopbaptistpredators.org/BaptistHideSeek.html
See post #54
““Or that married pastors are less likely to be homosexuals than unmarried priests?” / Could you expand?”
Well, according to you: “In fact, the data show that “inappropriate touching” has been the most common form of abuse, and that most of the victims were postpubescent males, meaning that homosexuality was at work.”
While it doesn’t seem to be true that it is mostly ‘inappropriate touching’, it certainly is true that it is mostly same sex. Homosexuality, as you note.
Let’s be honest. Right or wrong, there would be a lot less outrage if priests (or baptist pastors) were having inappropriate sexual conduct with 18-25 year old women. I think I posted once to you about the Baptist deacon I knew who shacked up with the gal in the choir...she was in her late 20s. He resigned from the church under pressure in a few days time, but it would have been more shocking if he had shacked up with a guy in the choir. And if it had been a 14 year old boy, he’d have been handed over to the cops.
Sexual wrongdoing is still wrongdoing, and that deacon was out of the church before the church as a whole could throw him out on Sunday, but the sexual wrongdoing on the part of priests is mostly homosexual. And while married men sometimes come out of the closet, I doubt that they make up the same percentage of homosexuals as unmarried homosexuals do.
““Of course “accusation” and “alleged” is in the fine print...”
On my computer, it displays in the same size type. And remember, 2/3s of the allegations were substantiated by the Catholic Church - and good on the Catholic Church for not hiding that figure.
FWIW, I’ve never seen a post by WaterBoard before today, and I know nothing about motives.
“Do Baptist seminaries refuse to ordain non-sexually active homosexuals?”
If they agree to be celibate...it would depend on the congregation. This is what the SBC says, although I suspect it will sound strange to Catholics:
“Actually, there is no standard process or policy concerning ordination in the SBC. In fact, the SBC cannot ordain anyone. The matter of ordination is addressed strictly on a local church level. Every Southern Baptist church is autonomous and decides individually whether or not to ordain, or whether to require ordination of its pastor. When a church senses that God has led a person into pastoral ministry, it is a common practice to have a council (usually of pastors) review his testimony of salvation, his pastoral calling from the Lord, and his qualifications (including theological preparation and scriptural qualifications according to 1 Timothy 3:1-7 and Titus 1:7-9) for pastoral ministry. Based upon that interview the church typically decides whether or not ordination would be appropriate.
Some SBC churches require seminary training from an SBC seminary, while others may not, such a requirement is entirely up to the church.
Of course, every SBC church is free to approach ordination in the manner it deems best...
...According to our constitution, if a church no longer makes a bona fide contribution to the Convention’s work, or if it acts to “affirm, approve, or endorse homosexual behavior,” it no longer complies with the Constitution of the Southern Baptist Convention and is not permitted to send messengers to the annual meeting. These, however, are the only explicitly stated instances in which the SBC has the prerogative to take action.”
http://www.sbc.net/aboutus/faqs.asp
A congregation that says homosexuality is not sin will be removed from the SBC.
“Are there Baptist ministers who are not seminary trained?”
Yes. Any congregation can ordain anyone they believe is called by God.
“Baptist Hide and Seek”
There is nothing to hide. There is no one with authority above the local congregation. As pointed out above, the SBC doesn’t even track who is ordained, nor does it control who is or is not ordained.
It’s great of you to hang around and answer questions, and my intent is not hostile; you’ve made many posts that I admire, in the past.
I do have some questions, though, because you seem so certain (as have others) that your denomination is somehow safer from child sexual predators than the Catholic Chuch is. My position is that people are the same everywhere.
The other problem I have is that I do not see you looking at your denomination’s vulnerability to the exploitation and ruin of child sexual predators...did you read the SNAP link given above?
It does show how Baptists themselves made assessments of the known, demonstrated weaknesses in the Baptist lack of structure which left victims open to severe consequences when they attempted to report. It also clearly stated that there are many silenced, isolated victims who will never get the acknowledgement and help they need. Why on earth would a non-Catholic care to focus on the Catholic Church issue, when their own church has just as much of a problem.
The mote in your own eye, FRiend...
Because I have never known a predator priest, and because I have had many wonderful religious who have benefitted my family in many ways, I am greatly pained by any of them who fall short, and by those here who focus on the shortcomings.
So I can understand that you wouldn’t want to look in the mirror, so to speak...
In all fairness Wiki is accurate in its article on the abuse crisis in the Church especially in their presentation of the John Jay Report.
I just don’t trust them. I have seen too many inaccuracies on wiki.
The autonomy of the congregation is a fundamental part of what makes a Baptist a Baptist. Many Baptist congregations agree with the SBC but refuse to join because they want “full” independence. The SBC, however, is just a way to pool money to support missions and seminaries.
“Why on earth would a non-Catholic care to focus on the Catholic Church issue, when their own church has just as much of a problem.”
Does it? Statistics seem to indicate it does not. All Protestant churches had about 1/1000 claims filed against them, while the figure is about 1/100 for Catholic churches. There are a variety of proposed reasons for the difference, and I don’t have a clue which are accurate.
Nor do I wish to focus on Catholic problems. When it comes to people in authority abusing their church position, I believe there is really only a Christian problem - for the average non-believer will use ANY misconduct as an excuse not to believe. Priest or Pastor, the name of Christ is dragged in the mud. My point is not to attack Catholics, but to defend Baptist from charges of not caring or hiding problems. And the structure of the SBC - or the lack thereof - makes those charges false.
“the Baptist lack of structure which left victims open to severe consequences when they attempted to report.”
Not true. There is no structure to take some form of retribution or to intimidate. What are the “severe consequences” of reporting an assault by a Baptist pastor? None. The pastor has no authority to withhold any spiritual blessing from anyone.
Thank you for the courtesy of your answer. Have you read the link in post 141?
I understand. But in the case of the reporting on abuse within the Church they give adequate and thorough links to credible source material. So I believe whoever posted it is interested in facts and not in rumor mongering.
Yes, but I think it is wrong.
“For a Baptist minister, there is no one with the power to remove his credentials or to say that he can no longer be a minister. This is unlike the Catholic system where, if a bishop suspected a problem with one of his priests, and did nothing about it, he could be held accountable.
If a Baptist minister began to suspect a problem with one of his colleagues, it would be far easier for him to simply suggest that the problem minister move on. Though irresponsible, it would be much more comfortable to choose not to look too closely.”
First, no pastor has credentials to remove. He is ordained by a congregation, and the congregation can reject him and his ‘ministry’ at any time. Most can fire a pastor for any reason at any business meeting.
If the congregation refuses to do so, who will suffer? The people in the congregation, most likely. If found guilty of hiding problems, the congregation will pay any legal bills.
If you suspect a problem and have solid evidence, you can go to the police. If you lack solid evidence, you can fire the pastor. Once fired, anyone wanting to hire him should be asking the previous congregation why he left.
The best way for the evil pastor to hide would be to pretend he was working for a car dealer during that time, but he would risk being found out by someone else who knew him. He could hide, but he would be hiding without help.
If the congregation fired him without full evidence, they would simply tell the asking pastor search committee that they had concerns which they do not wish to discuss but that the firing was for good reason. That would be a huge warning flag to a pastor search committee.
If the committee didn’t heed the warning, then who would suffer? The new congregation that showed poor judgment.
Remember, since there is no hierarchy, there is nothing one baptist pastor can do to punish another baptist pastor. That works both ways. The good guy lacks the authority to investigate and punish the bad, but the bad lacks the power to harm the good. There is no advantage to covering anything up.
The congregation has full responsibility for anyone they hire. They can ordain anyone they choose, if needed, and they can take whatever time and use whatever standard they wish. In the church I’m in now, the search committee took nearly a year...in part because the salary is $24,000/year.
Baptist preacher abused an 11 yo girl in 2008, not arrested for a year. Confessed. Just recently convicted, and will be sentenced in July 2011.
BTW - the pastors I’ve known who were asked to leave were asked either because of pride or poor financial management. Not embezzlement, just bad priorities.
It depends on the congregation’s constitution or by-laws. Some allow the deacons to fire the pastor, and others require a church business meeting.
The following comes from the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith, so the congregational model isn’t something developed to hide predators:
26.5 In executing the authority entrusted to him, the Lord Jesus, through the ministry of his Word and by his Spirit, calls to himself out of the world those who are given to him by the Father. They are called to walk before him in the ways of obedience which he prescribes for them in his Word. He commands those who are so called to form local societies or churches for their mutual edification and to engage in the public worship which he requires of them while in the world.
26.6 The members of these churches are ‘saints’ by calling and they visibly demonstrate and give evidence of their obedience to the call of Christ by their profession and walk. They willingly consent to walk together according to Christ’s instructions, giving themselves to the Lord and to one another by the will of God, affirming their subjection to the directives of the Gospel.
26.7 To each church so gathered according to the mind [of Christ] as declared in his Word, the Lord has given all the power and authority required to conduct the form of worship and discipline which he has appointed for them to observe. He has also given commands and rules for the right and proper use of that power.
26.8 A local Church, gathered and organised according to the mind of Christ, consists of officers and members. The officers appointed by Christ to be chosen and set apart by the church are bishops or elders, and deacons. They are appointed particularly to oversee what the Lord has ordained, and to execute the powers and duties which the Lord has entrusted to them or to which he calls them. This pattern is to be continued to the end of the world.
26.9 The way appointed by Christ for calling any person qualified and gifted by the Holy Spirit for the office of bishop or elder, is that he is to be chosen by the communal vote of the church itself. He shall be solemnly set apart by fasting and prayer, with the laying on of hands by the elders of the church (if there are any previously appointed bishops or elders). Similarly, a deacon is also to be chosen by vote of the church and set apart by prayer, with the laying on of hands.
http://www.grbc.net/about_us/1689.php?chapter=26
Yes, and I see nothing about anyone trying to hide him or protect him. He’s looking at up to 60 years, and I hope he gets all 60.
“The girl, now 14, said she was scared and embarrassed. She did not report the abuse until telling her mother nearly 11 months later. “I thought it was time to tell her,” she said...Before contacting police, the mother said she consulted a pastor. “I wanted to make sure I was doing the right thing,” she said. “(Eubanks) is supposed to be a minister.”
Music minister (and public school teacher) charged with molesting a 10 yo girl,
http://www.pnj.com/article/20110421/NEWS01/104210320/1006/Teacher-charged-molesting-10-year-old-girl
FTA: Campbell’s wife, Janine, and the Rev. David Lewis, the pastor at Woodbine Baptist, testified on Campbell’s behalf.
Janine Campbell testified that she and her husband have been married for 13 years and have an 11-year-old daughter. She stood by a wall with her eyes closed and her hands folded in front of her as the judge made the decision on her husband’s bond.
Williams wondered how Lewis could keep Campbell from coming into contact with children at the church.
“He’s not teaching children at the church,” Lewis said.
From April of this year. Apparently, he’s still the music minister, since he posted bond and the senior minister testified on his behalf.
Here’s another one:
Very popular minister has four young men accusing him, and four civil cases against him.
“His credibility has been severely strained, and a secret settlement would simply ratchet up the unease that many among his parishioners must already be feeling. Wouldn’t a man of the cloth who has been falsely accused of coercing young men into having sex with him insist on a public trial to clear his name? Didn’t Long say last year that he would “fight and fight vigorously?”
“He has been accused of the worst sort of exploitation. Three of the young men say the relationships started when they were teen-agers and members of a church ministry called the “LongFellows Youth Academy.” (Did I mention Long’s narcissism?) His accusers say the minister treated them to overseas trips and/or fancy gifts in exchange for sexual favors.
“Church finances have already suffered in the wake of the lawsuits. The church has laid off employees and cut salaries, according to a message posted on a church Web site in March.
“Of course, there are many members who insist they don’t believe the accusers. When a popular minister is charged with wrongdoing, he can always count on the unquestioning support of some. But many members will find that the spell has been broken; Long’s aura of invincibility has faded; his air of authority, once so powerful, is greatly diminished.”
He’s still the minister...so much for quick action.
Here’s another one:
He had a three way with two teen girls in his church office last July, arrested in April 2011. Active in Christian rock music. Married with three children. Denies everything.
Comment from a church member: Brijbag will likely have many supporters.
“I think he’s innocent and I think that’s a perspective a lot of people will have,” Jordan said.
These are very recent articles; more than one is detailing abuse that occured some little while back, and more than one “alleged” abuser is still being investigated.
I am certain there are plenty more to be found, just within the last three months.
My point in posting them is not to castigate Baptists, but to counter the idea that Baptists are much better in this regard than Catholics. Frankly, I think all churches are the same, with the exception that those who feel superior and invincible due to their theology or their organizational structure may be those placing their children most at risk.
How many more Baptist children have been abused, and have kept completely silent due to their families or their churches?
I will say that my favorite Baptist is my son in law, whom I dearly love, but he has no illusions that Baptists are any better off than any other church in the clergy child sexual abuse arena.
Again, I want to say that as one redeemed by Christ Jesus, my Lord and Savior, I have learned from your posts, and have been lifted up many times in the past.
I want to thank you for those moments, and also to say that your courtesy and cooperation in looking at my questions is the only reason I am asking them of YOU. I do not hold you in any way responsible for the evil done by those who call themselves Baptist clergy yet do not live the sacrificial life that the best Baptist clergy must, and do.
My heart breaks for all true victims of clergy sexual abuse, and perhaps, praise God, some of these men will be exonerated. I simply ask for the same consideration from the non-Catholics toward the Catholics.
“““Insurance companies receive from Protestant churches each year about 260 reports involving allegations of sexual abuse committed against minors. This is LESS than the annual number of 228 abuse incidents reported against Catholic priests. That reality is particularly noteworthy because Catholics keep track of even “credible accusation,” which Southern Baptists don’t even bother to determine or keep records on.”
There are roughly 300,000 Protestant congregations in America. There are roughly 22,000 Catholic congregations. (http://hirr.hartsem.edu/research/fastfacts/fast_facts.html)
260/300,000 = <1 in 1,000.
228/22,000 = 1 in 100.
Southern Baptists don’t even keep records of who is a pastor or ordained as a deacon. There simply is no hierarchy.”
Sorry I forgot to repond to this post. It’s not that easy otherwise everyone would spend less than an hour doing it.
For example, the studies in this book were never challenged...
Penn State professor Philip Jenkens reported that between 2 to 3 percent of Protestant clergy are pedophiles. His same study reported that less than 1.7 percent of Catholic priests are pedophiles. There is simply no reason to think that clergy child molesters are solely a Catholic problem. - *The results of this survey were reported in the book, Ministerial Ethics by Joe Trull and James Carter (2d ed. 2004), and in The Baptist Standard editorial, “Churches must act to prevent clergy sexual abuse,” 4/22/2002. - (source: The voice of SNAP Baptist) -
http://stopbaptistpredators.org/alarmingnumbers.html
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2709296/posts
Another example of an indepth study -
Hofstra University professor Charol Shakeshaft was commissioned by the Bush administration to do a literature search of existing studies on this subject; this was to be the groundwork upon which a national study would be launched. She concluded that “the physical sexual abuse of students in schools is likely more than 100 times the abuse by priests.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charol_Shakeshaft
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/24/opinion/main1933687.shtml
http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/archive/ldn/2010/apr/10040101
It takes months, years to do a study due to the intricacies and many variables.
“Southern Baptists don’t even keep records of who is a pastor or ordained as a deacon. There simply is no hierarchy.””
Agree, and it’s considered a problem -
Baptist Hide and Seek
[...]Remember: Most clergy child molesters have never been convicted of anything. Of all the Catholic priests who have been removed from ministry, only 3 percent were able to be criminally prosecuted and only 2 percent were ever jailed. If Catholics themselves had not taken action - finally - over 700 child molesting priests would still be working in ministry. The largest Protestant denomination needs to do something about this problem as well.[...]
http://stopbaptistpredators.org/BaptistHideSeek.html
There are no accurate numbers due to the “Hide and Seek”.
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