Posted on 05/31/2011 11:53:33 AM PDT by marshmallow
Yes the marriage was sanctified so that Jesus could have an earthly father and so that Mary would not be dishonored.
To better explain why the marriage would not have included sex I’ll need to post some links. I don’t have them handy right now but will post them to you later.
No thank you. The matter is clear in my mind.
Amen... but the weight that Catholicism puts on Mary’s perpetual virginity points to the fact that they see sex between husbands and wives as dirty .. It seems the only woman that has value is the one that is a virgin
“What is the measuring rod for non scriptural teaching ?”
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I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and turning to a different gospel—not that there is a different gospel, but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that whch we preached to you, let him be accursed. (Galatians 1:6-8)
So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter. (2 Thessalonians 2:15)
For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths. (2 Tim 4:3-4)
He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me. (Luke 10:16)
...and I assign to you, as my Father assigned to me, a kingdom, that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Luke 22:29-30)
Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you; if they kept my word, they will keep yours also. (John 15:20)
...and you [Apostles] also are witnesses, because you have been with me from the beginning. (John 15:27)
When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. (John 16:13)
Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”
Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, then healers, helpers, administrators, speakers in various kinds of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? But earnestly desire the higher gifts. (1 Corinthians 12:27-31; cf. Ephesians 4:1-6, 15-16)
“O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you.” (1 Tim 6:20)
Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. Let them do this joyfully, and not sadly, for that would be of no advantage to you. (Hebrews 13:17)
thanks for the refernce: “Pilgrim Church” by E.H. Broadbent. I found the link - http://thepilgrimchurch.com/
Yes, I am aware the John Wycliffe, Jon Hus & the Lollards (followers of Wycliffe) ... many - like Martin Luther, at first - considered themselves Catholics, but wanted reform and indeed the church needed it.
I know I’m stirring things up here, but it seems very “cult” like to think the church was totally screwed up till the Protestants came along. Many of God people have identified themselves as Catholics - especially during the Middle Ages.
We Protestants have not done so well ourselves ... the Salem Witch Trials, Henry VIII (where he divorced or beheaded 4 of his wives), the schisms, some extreme Puritanical ideas which seem so goofy, the televanglists gimmicks to fleece their audiences, ... we’ve done the types of things we point our fingers at the Catholics for doing.
I appreciate that the Catholic church kept Christianity alive the first 1500 years. And I see they have reformed themselves and encourage their followers to read the Bible daily for themselves.
You wrote:
“but the weight that Catholicism puts on Mary’s perpetual virginity points to the fact that they see sex between husbands and wives as dirty .. It seems the only woman that has value is the one that is a virgin”
That’s an incredibly bizarre statement. First of all, Jesus Himself valued virginity (Matthew 19:11-12) so there’s nothing wrong with His followers doing it as well. Secondly, the fact that Theology of the Body is ours means we do not view the marital act between husband and wife as anything but beneficial in itself.
Care to peddle any other anti-Catholic smears while you’re here?
IIRC Henry VIII did in only two of his six wives.
You are most welcome.
I understand. I just did not want you to think I was trying to avoid giving you a clear answer. I hope you have a fine day.
Henry VIII divorced or beheaded 4 of his wifes: Catherine of Aaragon and Anne of Cleves, he divorced. He beheaded Ann Bolyn and Catherine Howard (cousins).
To sum up the 6: (divorced, beheaded, died, divorced, beheaded, survive)
You wrote:
“I believe that will end this little conversation. God bless.”
Just remember, you didn’t know why Zachary was punsihed but the Virgin Mary was not.
And don’t read the following. It would make you more knowledgeable and you can’t have that.
http://www.ewtn.com/library/answers/talmud.htm
I understand. I pointed out he killed 2 of them. What you had written made it sound as if he killed perhaps more than 2.
you didn’t know why Zachary was punsihed but the Virgin Mary was not.
I guess to them being overshadowed by the Holy Spirit and conceiving the second person of the Holy Trinity, God the Son in the Flesh is no big deal and does not make Mary special at all.
I guess they can not suppose that Joseph the most chaste spouse of Mary might, just might regard it as a fearful trespass much like touching the Ark to have sexual intercourse with Mary who had been chosen by God to bring forth the Son. Yep just routine stuff in those days. No biggie.
You unwittingly hit on a great point. The ambiguity. (I thought I had been clear, when to a reader I wasn’t.)
Don’t you think so much fighing is caused by misunderstanding and jumping to conclusions?
“You failed a grade? I went to 8 years of Catholic grade school. There is no ninth year. Which grade did you fail?”
Kindergarten.
Detskii Sad.
Sovsem kak Rossia.
The Catholic church persecuted many, many groups of independent Christians before the Reformation.
That’s the thesis of “Pilgrim Church”.
You wrote:
“You don’t know that.”
R-I-G-H-T. That’s why you asked who Zachary was, right?
“I ended the conversation when you tried to provoke me to anger.”
Whatever excuse you want to use, buddy.
In all fairness re the Salem Witch Trials. It was also Puritans who put an end to the trials because some prominent clergy of the day saw the accusations as nonsense that defamed godly people and had no warrant under Scripture.
I am Catholic but think that Puritans are very misunderstood and have an undeserved reputation for being sour faced zealots who saw the devil under every bed.
That’s what happens when people who know little and understand even less start putting their own lusts onto the Bible. That’s why Protestantism has always hated celibacy - even though Christ honored it.
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