Posted on 08/27/2011 2:14:11 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta
***”There remain a number of verses that speak of the elect in the New Testament. In light of all that we have studied we can confidently know that they have nothing to do with the Calvinistic idea of predestined to salvation or damnation. Furthermore, in almost all of the cases, understanding them to be a reference to the Jews, God’s chosen people, is warranted. Let’s briefly consider those remaining. When Jesus spoke of God avenging “His own elect who cry out day and night to Him,” (Luke 18:7) He was talking about the Jews. “Rufus, chosen in the Lord,” (Rom 16:13) may be speaking of him being Jewish. This would make the most sense given that of the many other (obviously) believing brothers and sisters in the chapter, only Rufus is called elect. Why would Paul refer to only him as being elect, if the Calvinistic definition of election were true? Were the others not also heirs of eternal life? Understanding that elect/election is not salvation and is generally a reference to the Jews the passage makes complete sense. It must be noted that Priscilla and Aquila, from Rome, were also Jewish and yet were not called elect. Could it be that because Paul had nothing else to say about Rufus that he simply stated that he was chosen/elect in the Lord? Ephesians 1:4 ought to be viewed in light of the chosen people, Israel: “just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,” (Eph 1:4). We know that Paul traveled to Ephesus and there spent three months reasoning with the Jews in the synagogues (Acts 19:1-8). Thus, Ephesians seems to be once again, for “the Jew first and then the Gentile” paradigm.”
Ephesians 1:4-5 does not support Calvinism***
See, here is where a person must look to the whole and not the part. The ASSUMPTION is that Paul is speaking to the Jews. How that assumption is made, I’ll never know. If you were to look just a few, only a few words above Ephesians 1:4, you would find that...GASP... Paul wrote this letter TO BELIEVERS IN EPHESUS, not to Jews. When he says “Just as he chose US”... Paul was talking to CHRISTIANS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Provide the Scriptures that state that God chooses who will accept Christ, and who will not. God said:
You'll have to find Scripture that contradicts the above to make your belief work. Good luck.
Now you got me confused. Then there IS a list. God has it.
Provide the supporting Scriptures.
Jesus was speaking to a Jewish audience in Matthew 24. His "elect" in Matthew 24 refers to Jewish and Tribulation believers after the Tribulation is finished. The Church had not yet been established at the time Jesus spoke to His disciples in Matthew 24 and Matthew 24 does not refer to the Church or to Christians.
Matthew 24 does not validate Calvinism.
If the Scripture states that Paul traveled to Ephesus and there spent three months reasoning with the Jews in the synagogues (Acts 19:1-8), who would he be speaking to?
“choose you this day whom you will serve, as for me and my house we will serve the Lord”
When you follow the “mans free will” point of view, it relies on man to weigh both sides of the equation and through his superior intellect decide which team to pick. It also puts God in the position of a cheerleader saying “Pick me, Pick me” (I stand at the door and knock, knock, knock”). Kind of make Him look inept, doesn’t it. But the Bible tells me that all my works (including any choice I might make) are like filthy rags. I cant get to the Father by works (of making a choice)....Calvinism takes the spotlight off of men, and onto God.
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Through Adam, we were all destined to hell. The fact that Jesus saved SOME doesn’t mean he destined the rest of us to hell, Adam did that. God is a loving God, but also a just God.
***Provide the Scriptures that state that God chooses who will accept Christ, and who will not. ***
Once again, you must read a little further... John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.”
Amen. This I believe, also.
TIA
You are SOOOOOO funny. Jesus was speaking to JEWS because that was what was there at the time. There weren’t any CHRISTIANS yet.
Jesus NEVER spoke to CHRISTIANS, because they were not there.
What you are says, therefore, is that we do not need to read the Bible, just the parts that specifically speak to “Christians”. Nonsense. The whole Bible is for God’s followers, even the “Jewish” parts.
Right. Christ died for the world, the Holy Spirit woos the unbeliever, the unbeliever chooses to respond to the Holy Spirit or to reject the conviction of the Holy Spirit, and those who make the choice to accept Christ spend eternity with Him.
This verse does not contradict those I posted which states that Jesus died for the entire world, nor does it validate Calvinism.
I have no idea.
***Now you got me confused. Then there IS a list. God has it.
Provide the supporting Scriptures.***
The Book of GiovannaNicoletta 1:1
Of course. He’s God and knows past, present and future.
If we are saved by grace thru election, there is no need for a gospel call at all. There is no reason to command anyone to believe, if believe is given irresistibly to some and denied forever to others.
We do not access God’s grace by election, but by believing (”Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand...”).
Elect is what we are IN CHRIST. Folks tend to ignore that phrase, since it is related to a tribal approach to society. Yet it is one of the most important phrases in the scripture. In Christ, we have everything Christ has. For example: “he chose us in him before the foundation of the world”. Most Calvinists ignore the words IN CHRIST, and turn it into ‘he chose us before the foundation of the world” - but that isn’t what it says.
We are saved by grace thru faith - and saving faith is NEVER called a gift in scripture. Not by grace thru election, but by grace thru faith. The critical issue is not a list of names, but believing: “He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”
Further, we believe to live, we do not live to believe. John 20 says, “these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.”
Believing gives us life. We are not given life so we can believe.
Consider the examples of healing:
Mat 9:22 Jesus turned, and seeing her he said, “Take heart, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And instantly the woman was made well.
Mat 9:29 Then he touched their eyes, saying, “According to your faith be it done to you.”
Mat 15:28 Then Jesus answered her, “O woman, great is your faith! Be it done for you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed instantly.
Mar 2:5 And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “My son, your sins are forgiven.”
The problem with Calvinism is that it is based on our being ‘dead’ in our sins, without understanding what ‘dead’ means. It ignores the verses about our being blind, or slaves, or children, and makes us all totally dead. It ignores the Prodigal Son:
” 17”But when he came to himself, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have more than enough bread, but I perish here with hunger! 18I will arise and go to my father, and I will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you...
...22But the father said to his servants, ‘Bring quickly the best robe, and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet. 23And bring the fattened calf and kill it, and let us eat and celebrate. 24For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.’ And they began to celebrate.” - Luke 15
In Matthew 24, Jesus was speaking to a Jewish audience of the events of the Tribulation that Israel would have to go through. Since the Church will not be on earth during the Tribulation, but Israel will be, Jesus, again, was telling His Jewish audience what the Jews could expect during the Tribulation.
The Church had not yet been established at that time, and there is nothing in the Matthew 24 test which indicates that we are to take those passages as referring to the Church.
So, when that Scripture is taken in it's proper context, we know that the "elect" in Matthew 24 does not refer to the Church because the Church will have already been taken off the scene before the Tribulation.
There is no Scriptural justification for replacing the intended focus of Matthew 24, which is Israel, with the Church.
Seems to me that passage says no one can come unless drawn, but it doesn’t that that all who are drawn come, does it?
So it’s no different than saying “no one can enter through this gate unless I unlock it”, but it doesn’t mean that once unlocked everyone will go through, there will be some who choose not to go through, just as there might be those who are drawn but resist and don’t come. But Jesus will only raise those who are drawn and who do come to him.
Can't you find the Scriptures to support your beliefs?
Explain Romans 8:29-30.
He foreknew... Jesus knew from the beginning of time who would be saved.
He predestined... Jesus determined our destiny before the beignning of creation.
He called... Jesus called us, not we calling God.
He justified... Jesus justified his own by dying on the cross.
He glorified... Jesus give glory to those he knew, he died for, he justified... note also the tense of the words. It isn’t something in the future, but something that has already happened, before we were born, before we died, before we became his children, Jesus glorified us.
We had nothing to do with it.
As for the gospel call... Jesus uses many things to bring his own to him. I have been used as a tool this way to bring someone to Christ. We do not know whom God has chosen, that is why we MUST tell others about Christ.
You do realize that there is only one place in scripture where faith is termed a ‘work’:
8Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” - John 6
And in that passage, belief is a ‘work’ Jesus orders us to do!
In every other passage, faith is CONTRASTED with the works of man.
Also, saving faith is never described as something God gives us (a gift), but always our response to His grace.
“I cant get to the Father by works (of making a choice)”
Actually, you can come to him no other way. Repent means to change your mind. And we are commanded to repent. If we do not repent and believe, we will die.
Mat 21:32 “For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes believed him. And even when you saw it, you did not afterward change your minds and believe him.
Mar 16:14 Afterward he appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at table, and he rebuked them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who saw him after he had risen.
Hard to condemn someone for not believing, if that means you failed to give them belief!
Act 11:21 And the hand of the Lord was with them, and a great number who believed turned to the Lord.
Jhn 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
Jhn 3:15 “that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
Jhn 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Jhn 3:18 “Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Jhn 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
Jhn 6:40 “For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
Jhn 6:47 “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
Jhn 7:38 “Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’”
Act 4:4 But many of those who had heard the word believed, and the number of the men came to about five thousand.
Act 16:31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Rom 3:22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”
Rom 4:5 And to the one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,
Rom 4:24 but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord,
Rom 9:33 as it is written, “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”
Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.”
Gal 2:16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
Please note that last verse: “so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law”
We have believed, not “We received belief”. We have done something. What? Believed. Why? To be justified by faith in Christ”.
If we are saved by grace thru election, God is a liar.
Other verses say that Jesus will not lose one of his own. That know one the Father gives to him will be lost. If I had time, I could find them, but I am at work and doing all this from memory. Well, most of it :>)
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