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To: CynicalBear

“Did Abraham make that covenant with God or was he sleeping and God made the covenant without Abrahams input? “

Hmmm...”5And he brought him outside and said, “Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.” 6And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.” - Genesis 15

Golly - Abraham didn’t make the covenant with God, but neither did God make it with him while Abraham slept.

“That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist.

In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, “So shall your offspring be.” He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead ( since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah’s womb. No distrust made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised.

That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.”


84 posted on 08/27/2011 6:37:17 PM PDT by Mr Rogers ("they found themselves made strangers in their own country")
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To: Mr Rogers
"Golly - Abraham didn’t make the covenant with God, but neither did God make it with him while Abraham slept."

These are not a gotcha questions. I genuinely want a different perspective and I value yours.

If election is predetermined, of what use or benefit is a covenant? Further, if God chooses to elect, why does He exclude some. Why the need for this earthly kabuki theater, wouldn't God's will be satisfied by willing some directly to heaven and some directly to hell?

88 posted on 08/27/2011 6:50:56 PM PDT by Natural Law (For God so loved the world He did not send a book.)
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To: Mr Rogers
>>Golly - Abraham didn’t make the covenant with God, but neither did God make it with him while Abraham slept.<<

Why do you stop reading and make your assumptions? How about reading the entire version of evernts.

12And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him.

Not sleeping you say? Now while he is sleeping God makes the covenant.

13And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;

14And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.

15And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.

16But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

Now here is where the covenant is sealed. Abram still sleeping by the way, and the deep sleep happened before it was even dark as we see in the next verse.

17And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.

18In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

You really need to use all of scripture, not just pick verses to try to support error.

89 posted on 08/27/2011 6:56:32 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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