Posted on 09/02/2011 9:07:47 AM PDT by marshmallow
Minneapolis, Minnesota (CNN) –Prior to 2006, few people even knew that then-Minnesota state legislator Keith Ellison was a Muslim. Because of his English name, he said, no one thought to ask.
But five years ago, when he ran for a seat in the United States House of Representatives - a race he would go on to win - word of his religious affiliation began to spread.
“When I started running for Congress it actually took me by surprise that so many people were fascinated with me being the first Muslim in Congress,” said Ellison, a Democrat now serving his third term in the House.
“But someone said to me, ‘Look Keith, think of a person of Japanese origin running for Congress six years after Pearl Harbor–this might be a news story.’”
Though Ellison's status as the first Muslim elected to Congress is widely known, fewer are aware that he was born into a Catholic family in Detroit and was brought up attending Catholic schools.
But he said he was never comfortable with that faith.
“I just felt it was ritual and dogma,” Ellison said. “Of course, that’s not the reality of Catholicism, but it’s the reality I lived. So I just kind of lost interest and stopped going to Mass unless I was required to.”
It wasn’t until he was a student at Wayne State University in Detroit when Ellison began, “looking for other things.”
(Excerpt) Read more at religion.blogs.cnn.com ...
-- interesting, so does your New World Translation, bb not contain Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon, which were never quoted in the NT?
In contrast
Matt. 2:16 - Herod's decree of slaying innocent children was prophesied in Wis. 11:7 - slaying the holy innocents.
Matt. 6:19-20 - Jesus' statement about laying up for yourselves treasure in heaven follows Sirach 29:11 - lay up your treasure.
Matt.. 7:12 - Jesus' golden rule "do unto others" is the converse of Tobit 4:15 - what you hate, do not do to others.
Matt. 7:16,20 - Jesus' statement "you will know them by their fruits" follows Sirach 27:6 - the fruit discloses the cultivation.
Matt. 9:36 - the people were "like sheep without a shepherd" is same as Judith 11:19 - sheep without a shepherd.
Matt. 11:25 - Jesus' description "Lord of heaven and earth" is the same as Tobit 7:18 - Lord of heaven and earth.
Matt. 12:42 - Jesus refers to the wisdom of Solomon which was recorded and made part of the deuterocanonical books.
Matt. 16:18 - Jesus' reference to the "power of death" and "gates of Hades" references Wisdom 16:13.
Matt. 22:25; Mark 12:20; Luke 20:29 - Gospel writers refer to the canonicity of Tobit 3:8 and 7:11 regarding the seven brothers.
Matt. 24:15 - the "desolating sacrilege" Jesus refers to is also taken from 1 Macc. 1:54 and 2 Macc. 8:17.
Matt. 24:16 - let those "flee to the mountains" is taken from 1 Macc. 2:28.
Matt. 27:43 - if He is God's Son, let God deliver him from His adversaries follows Wisdom 2:18.
Mark 4:5,16-17 - Jesus' description of seeds falling on rocky ground and having no root follows Sirach 40:15.
Mark 9:48 - description of hell where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched references Judith 16:17.
Luke 1:42 - Elizabeth's declaration of Mary's blessedness above all women follows Uzziah's declaration in Judith 13:18.
Luke 1:52 - Mary's magnificat addressing the mighty falling from their thrones and replaced by lowly follows Sirach 10:14.
Luke 2:29 - Simeon's declaration that he is ready to die after seeing the Child Jesus follows Tobit 11:9.
Luke 13:29 - the Lord's description of men coming from east and west to rejoice in God follows Baruch 4:37.
Luke 21:24 - Jesus' usage of "fall by the edge of the sword" follows Sirach 28:18.
Luke 24:4 and Acts 1:10 - Luke's description of the two men in dazzling apparel reminds us of 2 Macc. 3:26.
John 1:3 - all things were made through Him, the Word, follows Wisdom 9:1.
John 3:13 - who has ascended into heaven but He who descended from heaven references Baruch 3:29.
John 4:48; Acts 5:12; 15:12; 2 Cor. 12:12 - Jesus', Luke's and Paul's usage of "signs and wonders" follows Wisdom 8:8.
John 5:18 - Jesus claiming that God is His Father follows Wisdom 2:16.
John 6:35-59 - Jesus' Eucharistic discourse is foreshadowed in Sirach 24:21.
John 10:22 - the identification of the feast of the dedication is taken from 1 Macc. 4:59.
John 10:36 – Jesus accepts the inspiration of Maccabees as He analogizes the Hanukkah consecration to His own consecration to the Father in 1 Macc. 4:36.
John 15:6 - branches that don't bear fruit and are cut down follows Wis. 4:5 where branches are broken off.
Acts 1:15 - Luke's reference to the 120 may be a reference to 1 Macc. 3:55 - leaders of tens / restoration of the twelve.
Acts 10:34; Rom. 2:11; Gal. 2:6 - Peter's and Paul's statement that God shows no partiality references Sirach 35:12.
Acts 17:29 - description of false gods as like gold and silver made by men follows Wisdom 13:10.
Rom 1:18-25 - Paul's teaching on the knowledge of the Creator and the ignorance and sin of idolatry follows Wis. 13:1-10.
Rom. 1:20 - specifically, God's existence being evident in nature follows Wis. 13:1.
Rom. 1:23 - the sin of worshipping mortal man, birds, animals and reptiles follows Wis. 11:15; 12:24-27; 13:10; 14:8.
Rom. 1:24-27 - this idolatry results in all kinds of sexual perversion which follows Wis. 14:12,24-27.
Rom. 4:17 - Abraham is a father of many nations follows Sirach 44:19.
Rom. 5:12 - description of death and sin entering into the world is similar to Wisdom 2:24.
Rom. 9:21 - usage of the potter and the clay, making two kinds of vessels follows Wisdom 15:7.
1 Cor. 2:16 - Paul's question, "who has known the mind of the Lord?" references Wisdom 9:13.
1 Cor. 6:12-13; 10:23-26 - warning that, while all things are good, beware of gluttony, follows Sirach 36:18 and 37:28-30.
1 Cor. 8:5-6 - Paul acknowledging many "gods" but one Lord follows Wis. 13:3.
1 Cor. 10:1 - Paul's description of our fathers being under the cloud passing through the sea refers to Wisdom 19:7.
1 Cor. 10:20 - what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God refers to Baruch 4:7.
1 Cor. 15:29 - if no expectation of resurrection, it would be foolish to be baptized on their behalf follows 2 Macc. 12:43-45.
Eph. 1:17 - Paul's prayer for a "spirit of wisdom" follows the prayer for the spirit of wisdom in Wisdom 7:7.
Eph. 6:14 - Paul describing the breastplate of righteousness is the same as Wis. 5:18. See also Isaiah 59:17 and 1 Thess. 5:8.
Eph. 6:13-17 - in fact, the whole discussion of armor, helmet, breastplate, sword, shield follows Wis. 5:17-20.
1 Tim. 6:15 - Paul's description of God as Sovereign and King of kings is from 2 Macc. 12:15; 13:4.
2 Tim. 4:8 - Paul's description of a crown of righteousness is similar to Wisdom 5:16.
Heb. 4:12 - Paul's description of God's word as a sword is similar to Wisdom 18:15.
Heb. 11:5 - Enoch being taken up is also referenced in Wis 4:10 and Sir 44:16. See also 2 Kings 2:1-13 & Sir 48:9 regarding Elijah.
Heb 11:35 - Paul teaches about the martyrdom of the mother and her sons described in 2 Macc. 7:1-42.
Heb. 12:12 - the description "drooping hands" and "weak knees" comes from Sirach 25:23.
James 1:19 - let every man be quick to hear and slow to respond follows Sirach 5:11.
James 2:23 - it was reckoned to him as righteousness follows 1 Macc. 2:52 - it was reckoned to him as righteousness.
James 3:13 - James' instruction to perform works in meekness follows Sirach 3:17.
James 5:3 - describing silver which rusts and laying up treasure follows Sirach 29:10-11.
James 5:6 - condemning and killing the "righteous man" follows Wisdom 2:10-20.
1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter teaches about testing faith by purgatorial fire as described in Wisdom 3:5-6 and Sirach 2:5.
1 Peter 1:17 - God judging each one according to his deeds refers to Sirach 16:12 - God judges man according to his deeds.
2 Peter 2:7 - God's rescue of a righteous man (Lot) is also described in Wisdom 10:6.
Rev. 1:4 – the seven spirits who are before his throne is taken from Tobit 12:15 – Raphael is one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints before the Holy One.
Rev. 1:18; Matt. 16:18 - power of life over death and gates of Hades follows Wis. 16:13.
Rev. 2:12 - reference to the two-edged sword is similar to the description of God's Word in Wisdom 18:16.
Rev. 5:7 - God is described as seated on His throne, and this is the same description used in Sirach 1:8.
Rev. 8:3-4 - prayers of the saints presented to God by the hand of an angel follows Tobit 12:12,15.
Rev. 8:7 - raining of hail and fire to the earth follows Wisdom 16:22 and Sirach 39:29.
Rev. 9:3 - raining of locusts on the earth follows Wisdom 16:9.
Rev. 11:19 - the vision of the ark of the covenant (Mary) in a cloud of glory was prophesied in 2 Macc. 2:7.
Rev. 17:14 - description of God as King of kings follows 2 Macc. 13:4.
Rev. 19:1 - the cry "Hallelujah" at the coming of the new Jerusalem follows Tobit 13:18.
Rev. 19:11 - the description of the Lord on a white horse in the heavens follows 2 Macc. 3:25; 11:8.
Rev. 19:16 - description of our Lord as King of kings is taken from 2 Macc. 13:4.
Rev. 21:19 - the description of the new Jerusalem with precious stones is prophesied in Tobit 13:17.
Exodus 23:7 - do not slay the innocent and righteous - Dan. 13:53 - do not put to death an innocent and righteous person.
1 Sam. 28:7-20 – the intercessory mediation of deceased Samuel for Saul follows Sirach 46:20.
2 Kings 2:1-13 – Elijah being taken up into heaven follows Sirach 48:9.
2 Tim. 3:16 - the inspired Scripture that Paul was referring to included the deuterocanonical texts that the Protestants removed. The books Baruch, Tobit, Maccabees, Judith, Sirach, Wisdom and parts of Daniel and Esther were all included in the Septuagint that Jesus and the apostles used.
If your group with its incomplete gospel wishes to reject God's Word, that's your group's problem
You are aware, aren't you, that the Apocryphal books were NOT accepted in the same way that the other inspired Scriptures were? The ECFs agreed that the revealed word of God was authoritative and was so because they were God-breathed and inerrant. Thomas Aquinas, in agreeing with Augustine, confessed of the books of Scripture, ‘I firmly believe that none of their authors have erred in composing them’ and refers to Scripture as ‘unfailing truth'. Jerome did not accept the Apocryphal books as inspired, but translated them into Latin to be included in the Vulgate only after pressure. The writings were considered useful for the purposes of edification and for reading in the churches but were not authoritative for the establishment of doctrine. They were not to be considered as the infallible word of God and having the status as canonical and he was not alone in this view. Nowhere do these books ever state they are God's word, unlike most of the Old Testament books. They were unequivocally rejected as canonical by the Jews. Many contain errors so they cannot be revelation from God.
From http://www.christiantruth.com/articles/Apocryphapart2.html:
He (Jerome) and Origen are the only fathers considered to be true biblical scholars in the early Church, and Jerome, alone among all the fathers, is considered to be a Hebrew scholar. Given the many errors in translation found in the Septuagint, Jerome undertook to provide a fresh translation directly from the Hebrew for the Latin Church. He received a great deal of criticism because many felt, in undertaking this translation, he was casting aspersion upon the Septuagint which they considered inspired. His translation became known as the Latin Vulgate and became the standard Bible translation used by the Western Church throughout the medieval ages and the post-Tridentine Roman Catholic Church. Jerome lived in Palestine and consulted with the Jews. As a result he refused to translate the Apocrypha because the books were not part of the Hebrew canon. His position was that of Rufinus and Athanasius. He made it clear that the Church of his day did not grant canonical status to the writings of the Apocrypha as being inspired. While commenting on the Wisdom of Solomon and Ecclesiasticus, Jerome made these statements about the books of Judith, Tobit and Maccabees:
As, then, the Church reads Judith, Tobit, and the books of Maccabees, but does not admit them among the canonical Scriptures, so let it also read these two Volumes (Wisdom of Solomon and Ecclesiasticus) for the edification of the people, not to give authority to doctrines of the Church (emphasis mine)
So, I know we could go back and forth on this subject, but I really have better fish to fry (we had fish tonight with a yummy pineapple salsa). You have the right to believe what you want about this subject, of course, but I will not be convinced that these extra-biblical works will ever share the same place in the faith as those with which we all agree.
33,000 Protestant denominations? Again? Really?
I’ve asked Catholics before to give us one example of the 33,000 different interpretations they’ve found of even ONE verse of Scripture and not had any takers. Most verses have one, or possibly two interpretations.
The doctrinal differences aren’t because any one verse can be interpreted a multitude of different ways, but rather that the doctrinal positions can be supported by several to many verses found within the whole of Scripture.
That aside, the claim that there is unity within the Catholic church rings hollow in light of this......
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Nor is there unity within the Catholic church. For all the Catholic criticism of Protestantism for differing *interpretations* etc, Catholicism is no better.
There is no unity within Catholicism. Catholics are in no position to point fingers.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2678253/posts?page=357#357
(Courtesy ping to rogator for referencing a comment of his.)
“Catholics look on diocesan bishops (Catholic and Orthodox) as the successors of the apostles who founded the particular church of their locale. In this manner a person could be a member of the Church of Corinth, Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Tucson or Pittsburgh.
Those of us who prefer Roman Catholic (actually Latin Catholic) are emphasizing our connection with the Roman Pontiff rather than the (e.g.) Maronite or the Melkite Patriarch.
Emphasizing the connection with the particular church rather than the Roman Church is IME common among very liberal Catholics and liberal bishops, many of whom actually see Roman Catholic as a derogatory term.”
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Not to mention the different flavors of Catholicism such as.......
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sect
Sects
Roman Catholic sects
There are many groups outside the Roman Catholic Church which are regarded as Catholic sects, such as the Community of the Lady of All Nations, the Palmarian Catholic Church, the Philippine Independent Church, the Brazilian Catholic Apostolic Church, the Free Catholic Church, the Movement for the Restoration of the Ten Commandments of God, and others.
The Sodalitium Christianae Vitae started in Lima, Peru, has multiple cases of psychological abuses experienced by youth that were attracted to the movement.[16]
There is also Russian orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, Ukrainian Catholic, Greek Orthodox, Coptic (Egyptian) to name a few more.
They most certainly do not adhere to the doctrinal position established by Rome on a number of fronts which many FRoman Catholics consider critical to Catholic faith.
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There is hardly the unity in Catholicism or Catholic faith that Catholics like to put forth. Differences ranging from the doctrines concerning Mary to recognizing the primacy of the pope. Not insignificant differences.
For example.....
http://www.ukrainian-orthodoxy.org/questions/2010/intercommunion.php
Question:
What are issues that need to be discussed before a marriage should take place between a Roman Catholic and a Ukranian Orthodox Catholic? Is the Eucharist believed in the same way?
Response:
Dr. Alexander Roman alex.roman@unicorne.org
The theology of the Eucharist is the same in both the Roman Catholic and Ukrainian Orthodox Churches. But the Churches are not in communion with one another which means that Roman Catholics cannot receive Communion in any Orthodox Church as a result.
http://www.ukrainian-orthodoxy.org/questions/2007/appostolic.html
Question:
I’m a Roman Catholic considering conversion to the Orthodox Faith. I’ve read some articles on the internet and am confused as to whether I need to bere-baptized. Do you consider baptism in the Latin rite invalid?
I’m planing to attend my very first mass in your Faith and was wondering if I would be allowed to receive the Eucharist or do I need to go through some sort of training first?
Answer:
Very Reverend Ihor Kutash kutash@unicorne.org
The Church preserves unity in diversity. In the Orthodox Church there is no hierarch with universal jurisdiction since its One True Shepherd, our Lord Jesus, has never left His Church (Matthew 28:20). The Apostle Peter does not replace or substitute for Him. The Scriptures do indeed indicate that Peter exercises an important role as leader among the Apostles but his primacy is exercised in equality or collegiality (”primus inter pares”) as the Book of Acts clearly shows. The Rock upon which the Church is built is our Lord Himself as we proclaim during Matins: “The Stone which the builders rejected has become the Cornerstone; this is the Lord’s doing and it is marvelous in our eyes” (from Psalm 118:2 - also the most often repeated phrase from the Old in the New Testament: Matthew 21:42, Mark 12:10, Luke 20:17, Acts 4:11 and 1 Peter 2:7). Peter, a leader among the Apostles, was first to proclaim the Church’s faith in our Lord upon Whom it is built: “You are the the Christ (i.e. the Messiah, God’s Chosen and Annointed One - igk), the Son of the Living God” (Matthew 16:15). He did not see himself as that Rock. Such, at any rate, is the conviction of the Orthodox Church.
So what?
Bless you, dear MD. Thanks.
Just because something is not recorded in Scripture doesn’t give anyone license to make stuff up and claim it’s legitimate simply because Scripture doesn’t contradict their fantasy.
That is ludicrous.
And Catholics criticize non-Catholics for having different interpretations of Scripture? At least we’re working with material actually FOUND IN Scripture instead of delusions of our own making.
/If one truly believed that Scripture was inspired by God considering it to be authoritative would be the only natural and logical conclusion one could reach.
If one truly believed that Scripture was inspired by God, considering it to be authoritative as a blueprint for living would be the only natural and logical conclusion one could reach. One would think that the results of reading it with the guidance of the Holy Spirit would have more impact on behavior, wouldn't one?
You can’t say you didn’t try.......
I would have thought that YOU would take evangelism seriously, if anyone would. Come on, convert me! Show me by your behavior the fruits of the spirit! Embody Paul’s Corinthian sermon for me! I’m waiting to see some real Christianity lived by some non-Catholics relying on Holy Scripture! So far, just a bunch of prideful bibliolators.
Oh, yes, very moving. Sure convinced ME. NOT!
I don’t talk like that and I hope others don’t accuse me of saying what you said. It sure seems like you fancy profanity in expressing yourself on this forum. I can only imagine how you talk at home.
I'd work with you in a soup kitchen......
For one thing, it would give me yet another opportunity to remind you that you do not need to remain in the unregenerate state of being a sinner in need of God's mercy. You can have it, own it as your own and be a redeemed child of God, a saint, as Scripture calls believers.
Cynical Bear put it so well here.....“believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved-and your house”. That means believe that Jesus is who He says He is and is the only way to the Father and eternal life with Him. He has paid the total and complete price for our salvation.
1 John 1:8 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 5:9-13 9 If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater, for this is the testimony of God that he has borne concerning his Son. 10Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. 11And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
John 3:14-15 14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
John 6:29 Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."
Romans 4:1-12 1What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness." 4Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: 7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; 8blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin."
9Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. 10How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. 11 He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, 12and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.
The Gospel is SO simple. God made it that way so that anyone can avail themselves of it. Man is the one who's unnecessarily complicated it.
All it is is taking God at His word that if we just trust Him, not a church, not actions on your own part. Just God. He will do it.
I can't think of anytime that I have said such a thing. Do you have an example? I DID go to a Bible college and worked my way through cramming four years into five and a half. And there were plenty of guiders, councilors, advisers, teachers and pastors. I learned quite a bit about quite a lot. So I cannot imagine why you could say I had no need of a teaching "authority". I was also taught to study the Bible and learn discernment so that what I was taught could be confirmed by the authority of God's word. Perhaps you have someone else in mind?
PNSN constantly tells others how to be saved. He doesn't hold back one bit.
Come on, convert me!
Only the Holy Spirit can do that work, JA.
John 16:7:11 7Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. 8 And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: 9concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; 10 concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer; 11 concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
As far as the fruit of the Spirit, the fruit is not what arbitrary demands someone makes about another and claims that those must be the fruit of conversion and the fruit of the Spirit. And the list of the fruit of the Spirit is found in Galatians, not Corinthians.....
Galatians 5:22-23 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
Well, it certainly is a good thing that we already know that your evidence is as flawed as a cheap diamond. You do comprehend the point that discrete "entities" does not equate to different denominations, don't you? Perhaps this conversation may help to remind you. The one you had with Markomalley back in June of last year on this very subject. I saved it because I somehow just knew we hadn't heard the last of it:
Why then are there that many volumes of Pub 78 ? Years ago it was 9 volumes but I wager it is more now. Most Catholic institutions tend to use the same EIN number but some have applied for their individual number. Each of these volumes is quite thick and the print is small. There are some secular non profit entities listed but while perusing pages years ago I noticed that the protestant churches are quite evident on randomly selected pages I made from several volumes. To obtain a number the entity must furnish and update their information some of which informs the reader of religious affiliation. I did not look at the documentation so I can not categorically state that there was not some affiliation between each entry. That would take a lifetime of research.
From BRONX2 on 6/15/10
To: bronx2
All I can say is be consistent then and identify each diocese in the world as its own denomination (both RC, EC, EO, and OO). There would, by the measure used by this group that developed the 30,000 (or 39,000 now) denominations, be somewhere over 8,000 denominations of Catholics and Orthodox. You and I both know that isn’t right. One other thing to consider regarding pub 78. My Knights of Columbus council has a charitable corporation that is registered in Pub 78. There are pages upon pages of Knights of Columbus organizations registered in that pub. How many Knights of Columbus fraternal benefit organizations are there? To my knowledge, just one. Even though each council is incorporated on its own, they are part of one large organization. I think you would see the same thing with any number of outfits that have independent chapters. You want to use “30,000” — go ahead. But just think: they have every right in the world to come back with “3,000” Roman Catholic denominations...using the same measure. And don’t ever complain if one of them does so, because they’ll be consistent with the measure you used.
18 posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2010 1:33:56 PM by markomalley (Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus)
You can't say you weren't warned.
That's a very lovely thing to say, and I would enjoy that on two conditions: First of all, we are not making soup, we're making the best meal we can with what we have, to secondly serve Christ in the spirit of the Scripture, "Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these, ye have done it unto me."
It is an honor and a joy for us to take Him at His word, and and work together to offer Him a meal. We don't preach to our honored guests, but we certainly allow them to preach to us, even those full of spirits. So, you would be welcome to give us all a sermon, provided you didn't get all arrogant about it, or presume to tell us what we believe and who we worship. What I found, when I joined the group, is that they have everything they need and want, that for me to work with them was a privilege for me, and that they had more true humility than I had seen in one place in a long time. I am not unhappy to be a sinner in need of God's mercy (thank you for actually reading what I wrote) I am safe in that position, safe for eternity.
Well, you had it, then you threw it away. But thanks for trying. Maybe some other time.
Amen...
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