Posted on 11/02/2011 9:26:44 AM PDT by DogwoodSouth
Southernfriedcatholicism is in need of a new recipe. This dog won’t hunt.
what I really want to know is: how many angels DO fit on the head of a pin?
Jesus quotes from the Deuterocanonical books -- Matt. 6:19-20 references Sirach 29:11 and Matt. 7:16,20 references Sirach 27:6,Matt. 24:15 references 1 Macc. 1:54 and Matt. 24:16 references 1 Macc. 2:28 among others.
Some say incorrectly that Jesus never quoted from them, ignoring the above, Yet in the New Testament, the books of Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Ecclesiastes, and the Song of Solomon are not quoted at all -- does that mean they are not inspired?
And to the point that only if Christ quoted them, then you have to junk out Haggai, Habbakuk, Amos and Joel. the Synod of Rome in 382 AD, council of Hippo (393) and Carthage (397,419) held the Deuterocanonical books as inspired
This was then ratified by the 2nd council of Nicaea (787) and Florence (1438-1445). So, I'm sorry but the Deuterocanonicals were held so long before Trent
Rejection of the Deuterocanonicals is doctrine unsupported by scripture.
These books were in the Septuagint and were referenced in the New Testament as shown in some examples above.
Uncountable billions of them can fit on the head of a pin. They have no physical form in the subset of reality the pin exists in so should they chose to somehow associate themselves with the head of a particular pin they would take up no space either individually or when in massive hordes.
;-)
Regards
Show me.
The term ‘purgatory’ does not exist, nor does a description of it.
Jesus told the thief on the cross, “TODAY, you will be with me in paradise.” Not I’ll see you after your stay in that purging place.
SHow me. Scripturally, a concept that even begins to describe a place that you call ‘purgatory’. It doesn’t exist, which is why Jesus told the thief “Today”.
http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/apocryph.htm
http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/apocryph.htm
An interesting quote from one of the above here, which also touches on the “Mary was perfect” teaching of the Catholic church which is completely foreign to Protestants and the protestant bible:
Not one of the apocryphal books is written in the Hebrew language, which was alone used by the inspired historians and poets of the Old Testament. All Apocryphal books are in Greek, except one which is extant only in Latin.
None of the apocryphal writers laid claim to inspiration.
The apocryphal books were never acknowledged as sacred scriptures by the Jews, custodians of the Hebrew scriptures (the apocrypha was written prior to the New Testament). In fact, the Jewish people rejected and destroyed the apocrypha after the overthow of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.
The apocryphal books were not permitted among the sacred books during the first four centuries of the real Christian church (I’m certainly not talking about the Catholic religion which is not Christian).
The Apocrypha contains fabulous statements which not only contradict the “canonical” scriptures but themselves. For example, in the two Books of Maccabees, Antiochus Epiphanes is made to die three different deaths in three different places.
The Apocrypha includes doctrines in variance with the Bible, such as prayers for the dead and sinless perfection. The following verses are taken from the Apocrypha translation by Ronald Knox dated 1954:
Basis for the doctrine of purgatory:
2 Maccabees 12:43-45, 2.000 pieces of silver were sent to Jerusalem for a sin-offering...Whereupon he made reconciliation for the dead, that they might be delivered from sin.
Salvation by works:
Ecclesiasticus 3:30, Water will quench a flaming fire, and alms maketh atonement for sin.
Tobit 12:8-9, 17, It is better to give alms than to lay up gold; for alms doth deliver from death, and shall purge away all sin.
Magic:
Tobit 6:5-8, If the Devil, or an evil spirit troubles anyone, they can be driven away by making a smoke of the heart, liver, and gall of a fish...and the Devil will smell it, and flee away, and never come again anymore.
Mary was born sinless (immaculate conception):
Wisdom 8:19-20, And I was a witty child and had received a good soul. And whereas I was more good, I came to a body undefiled.
It teaches immoral practices, such as lying, suicide, assasination and magical incantation.
No apocryphal book is referred to in the New Testament whereas the Old Testament is referred to hundreds of times.
Because of these and other reasons, the apocryphal books are only valuable as ancient documents illustrative of the manners, language, opinions and history of the East.
Some say it is quoted by Jesus. I give one example: It is argued that part of Jesus instruction on prayer (Matthew 6: 12,13) is from Sirach 28:2 and 33:1. This is a stretch. In Matthew Jesus states “And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.”
The scriptures in Sirach are:
28:2 “Forgive your neighbor a wrong, and then, when you petition, your sins will be pardoned.”
And
33:1 “No evil will befall the one who fears the Lord, but in trials such a one will be rescued again and again.”
These scriptures are only remotely touch on the same subject that Jesus discusses. 33:1 is especially troublesome. Jesus, in the sample prayer, tells us to ask God to deliver us from evil. Sirach says one who fears the Lord will be rescued. Tell that to Stephen and the apostles who were hung upside down. IOW, it is a lie.
I could go on, but you get my drift.
Here is the list of scriptures that some claim Jesus referenced in the NT. Read the scripture and then the “matching” Apocrypha text and you be the judge:
Matthew 6:10, 1Maccabees 3:60
Matthew 6:12, Sirach (Ecclesiasticus) 28:2
Matthew 6:13, Sirach 33:1
Matthew 7:12, and Luke 6:31, Tobit 4:16
Matthew 11:25, Tobit 7:18
Matthew 12:42, the Book of Wisdom itself
Matthew 13:43, Wisdom 3:7
Matthew 16:18, Wisdom 16:13
Matthew 24:16, 1Maccabees 2:28
Mark 4:5,16-17, Sirach 40:15
Mark 9:47-48, Judith 16:17
Luke 13:29, Baruch 4:37
Luke 21:24, Sirach 28:18
John 1:3, Wisdom 9:1
John 3:13, Baruch 3:29
John 4:48, Wisdom 8:8
John 5:18, Wisdom 2:16
John 6:35-59, Sirach 24:21
John 14:23, Sirach 2:15-16, (Septuagint) or Sirach 2:18 (Confraternity).
John 15:6, Wisdom 4:5
What makes you think Purgatory takes time? Or even exists in time as we know it?
For that matter, why do you think Purgatory is a place?
Would it help you to think of it as a transition?
What makes you think Jesus needs help in purging you of sin?
What makes you think God disapproves of prayer intended to ask His mercy for someone else?
And the best scholarship today acknowledges—that like mainstream Jews of His day (including the Pharisees, Saducees and the Essenes), Jesus Himself must of rejected the canonicity of the Apocrypha. He never indicated otherwise—and it would of been a notable innovation—and something He would of been accused of—if He had.
I believe it was mistrust of the Jews, and frankly, anti-Semitism—which kept idea of the possibility of the Apocrypha being canon alive throughout the Middle Ages. Finally sealed of course in Trent—with its curses to Hell of all Protestants.
Oh, the reason Protestants call it the “Apocrypha,” is the 4th C. translator of the Latin Vulgate, St. Jerome, named those books that—and, like the Jews, also thought they should be excluded from the Canon. Luther simply sided with the Jews....and with the majority of Roman Catholic scholars who came before him...
I don’t know about you, but I’d rather go by the books of the Old Testament acknowledged by Jesus and the 1st Century Apostles—not that of a 16th Century Roman council.
Nothing at all, we are called to, but upon death, the die is cast. Up or down. If you have Jesus as your Savior, you already have His mercy, if not, well, there ya go, and no amount of prayers, hail marys, or begging is gonna get you there.
As for answering a question with a question, you still have not answered mine. WHy is Jesus not sufficient for you to go to heaven, to get there? Why do you feel His sacrifice ‘needs a little extra help”?
I never said anything otherwise. Why do you think someone praying means that they think Jesus is not sufficient?
Is your God bound by time, or master of it? You seem so hung up on the fact that, for a human, time is linear. Why is that?
If I hear that someone I loved was in a car crash, can’t I pray to God that she is OK while I drive to the hospital? Now, in linear time, she may already be dead. Does that make my prayer foolish? Does that mean God can not help me or her?
Similarly, if I hear someone has died, why can’t I say a prayer that they found God’s mercy and forgiveness before they died?
I don’t think God has a problem with time. Do you?
The idea of purgatory is that it is a place for ‘purging’ the last of your sinfulness out before you get to heaven, Hence it can be said that believers in purgatory seem to believe that Jesus is insufficient to cover your sins to get you to heaven.
Praying has nothing to do with it. Once dead, your fate is sealed, up or down. If down, no amount of prayer will change it, if up, while nice to have, prayer will not add to your salvation.
I have answered the God and time question. But I’ll do it again. God is obviously not bound by time, but WE are. And the time for us to receive salvation is in the time we have before the time comes for our death. Time IS important to us here.
Praying for the living is a great thing, surely it is. We are told to pray continuously, after all.
Sure you can pray that someone found the Lord prior to death, BUT if they haven’t then the prayer will not help them, as they are dead here and not bound for Heaven without Jesus as Savior.
Your second sentence doesn’t follow from your first.
I’ll tell you what. You go to Heaven with your sins “covered” and I’ll go with mine purged and we’ll see who has a better time.
Purgation is the process whereby we are made clean, because of the Blood of Jesus. Not “covered”. Who would want to be covered when you can be changed?
Your problem is if you are awaiting purgation, you’ll never make it to heaven. Either all your sins were forgiven and remembered no more by the finished work of Christ on the cross, or none of them were and you’ll remain dead in your sins. Your ransom will not have been claimed and there remains no other sacrifice for your sins.
Will you enter Heaven exactly as you are right now? Or will you be changed before you enter?
"Behold, I shew you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a MOMENT, in the TWINKLING OF AN EYE, at the last trump, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." 1 Cor. 15:51,52.
We are changed faster than the blink of an eye. Not a purgative process.
Who said Purgatory takes time? You have made my point. Thank you.
Oh, so Purgatory does not take time? You are purgated in the twinkling of an eye? That’s not enough time to pray for the dead, who are supposedly there and in need of prayer to get out. And some are there for how long? How about being truthful about time spent in Purgatory, according to your Church. Please don’t make me look it up. Because I’m pretty sure your point will NOT have been made, according to your own Church’s writings and beliefs..
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