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Report: Ultra-Orthodox [Jews] Spitting at Christian Clergy in Jerusalem
The Deacon's Bench ^ | 11/4/11 | Deacon Greg Kandra

Posted on 11/04/2011 7:56:36 PM PDT by marshmallow

Details, from a Jewish paper in Israel:

Ultra-Orthodox young men curse and spit at Christian clergymen in the streets of Jerusalem’s Old City as a matter of routine. In most cases the clergymen ignore the attacks, but sometimes they strike back. Last week the Jerusalem Magistrate’s Court quashed the indictment against an Armenian priesthood student who had punched the man who spat at him.

Johannes Martarsian was walking in the Old City in May 2008 when an young ultra-Orthodox Jew spat at him. Maratersian punched the spitter in the face, making him bleed, and was charged for assault. But Judge Dov Pollock, who unexpectedly annulled the indictment, wrote in his verdict that “putting the defendant on trial for a single blow at a man who spat at his face, after suffering the degradation of being spat on for years while walking around in his church robes is a fundamental contravention of the principles of justice and decency.”

“Needless to say, spitting toward the defendant when he was wearing the robe is a criminal offense,” the judge said.

When Narek Garabedian came to Israel to study in the Armenian Seminary in Jerusalem half a year ago, he did not expect the insults, curses and spitting he would be subjected to daily by ultra-Orthodox Jews in the streets of the Old City.

“When I see an ultra-Orthodox man coming toward me in the street, I always ask myself if he will spit at me,” says Narek, a Canadian Armenian, this week. About a month ago, on his way to buy groceries in the Old City, two ultra-Orthodox men spat at him. The spittle did not fall at his feet but on his person. Narek, a former football player, decided this time not to turn the other.....

(Excerpt) Read more at patheos.com ...


TOPICS: Catholic; General Discusssion; Judaism; Orthodox Christian
KEYWORDS: israel; spitting
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To: jjotto
I think I agree with you right down the line and I am optimistic. (The Jewish story of the introduction to the Messianic Age is filled with goodness, unlike the Apocalypse in Christianity). But at heart I have a mystical outlook; these behaviors have spiritual roots. As the Sages teach, everyone has some sparks of Amalek in them, but ALL can transcend the negativity.

I don't know, some of the prophecies are pretty scary (such as Milchemet Gog uMagog, the "birthpangs of Messiah," and the last pre-Messianic generation having the characteristics of a dog). At any rate, sweetness always seems to be in short supply and horrors are always readily available. How long can the world go on this way? I know: stupid question. It's always gone on regardless of circumstances.

The Talmud records “Some of the descendants of Haman [who in turn was a descendant of Amalek, converted to Judaism and] studied the Torah in public,” and even names R. Shmuel bar Shilas. No one is without hope.

Yes, even I have heard the teaching about Haman's descendants. It does give hope.

101 posted on 11/06/2011 3:31:43 PM PST by Zionist Conspirator (Ki-hagoy vehamamlakhah 'asher lo'-ya`avdukh yove'du; vehagoyim charov yecheravu.)
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To: American in Israel
Re your post #99:

Now that's more like it! Thank you for taking a stand.

102 posted on 11/06/2011 3:33:25 PM PST by Zionist Conspirator (Ki-hagoy vehamamlakhah 'asher lo'-ya`avdukh yove'du; vehagoyim charov yecheravu.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
Not done for you, but you did point out that some might take my non confrontational stance as compliance with the statement. Really did not think the comment was worth dissection at the time. But as you pointed out, I was not clear.

sigh...

103 posted on 11/06/2011 3:41:35 PM PST by American in Israel (A wise man's heart directs him to the right, but the foolish mans heart directs him toward the left.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator

http://www.mpaths.com/2010/06/gog-umagog-already-passed.html

...I queried a Chabad Mashpia this past week before I wrote the previous article commented upon. My question was, “Please clarify for me, did the Rebbe say that the Geulah _can_ come without all the negative prophecies of the Nach (biblical prophets) or _will_ come without all the negative prophecies?” He answered, “The Rebbe said the Geulah _CAN_ come without all the negative prophecies.” And I’ll add the Rebbe clearly defined that SOME of the prophecies have already been fulfilled...

http://yeranenyaakov.blogspot.com/2005/05/follow-up-to-gog-umagog-post.html

...The Melitzer Rebbe, my esteemed and beloved teacher and spiritual guide, explained to me yesterday - in the exact words that he heard from the holy Rebbe Aaron of Belz of blessed memory - that the murder of 6,000,000 Jewish martyrs in the Nazi Holocaust was the pinnacle of Gog and Magog’s attack against Am Yisroel, the people of Israel. As a result, a third of the Jewish people was destroyed.

Gog and Magog are dead...


104 posted on 11/06/2011 3:44:27 PM PST by jjotto ("Ya could look it up!")
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To: jjotto
Thank you for relaying those teachings. I know that most prophecies are in fact conditional, and it is possible for them to be mitigated (such as the prophecy about Armilus).

I have also been told that the turmoil of the previous few centuries could be Milchemet Gog uMagog.

So when do Jews start burying their bodies in Gei Hamon Gog?

105 posted on 11/06/2011 3:48:42 PM PST by Zionist Conspirator (Ki-hagoy vehamamlakhah 'asher lo'-ya`avdukh yove'du; vehagoyim charov yecheravu.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator

Not saying I agree exactly, but the typical explanation is that it is a spiritual occurrence. This is the type of topic best discussed with an actual live teacher familiar with specifics.

Another explanation is that Jews will not be among the dead. Interestingly, it is attributed to the Vilna Gaon that the culmination of the war will last 12 minutes!


106 posted on 11/06/2011 4:42:33 PM PST by jjotto ("Ya could look it up!")
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To: Religion Moderator
Do not accuse another Freeper of lying. It attributes motive, the intent to decieve. It is "making it personal." Words such as "wrong" "false" "error" do not attribute motive.

With appropriate respect, "lying" is the proper word. The poster spread vicious lies and slander about Orthodox Judaism, which almost certainly came from his/her own sick imagination and/or prejudices. It is absurdly inconceivable that a convert to Orthodox Judaism would describe a "conversion" ceremony that involved standing naked and having water poured over her in front of men, or spitting on a Bible. No such ceremony exists, and such a ceremony would violate at least a half a dozen Torah commands. It is nearly akin to someone saying "a Jewish friend of mine told me that they add a ceremonial drop of Christian virgin blood to Passover matzah" or "a Jewish friend of mine told me that Jews like to stab the consecrated host." It is far, far more probable that the poster himself/herself invented this lie to spread vicious falsehoods about Jews and Judaism. I have no tolerance for that crap, and neither should FR.

107 posted on 11/06/2011 5:54:20 PM PST by ChicagoHebrew (.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
Charedi Jews are traditional Orthodox Jews. "Modern Orthodox" Jews are the left wing of Orthodoxy, and growing lefter by the minute.

I would strongly disagree with this. Haredi Judaism is more akin to Reform Judaism, except on the right. Whereas Reform Judaism abolished Torah commandments to fit in, the Haredim have added stringency upon stringency for the point of walling themselves apart in a mock 18th century Poland. Its ideology is no more than two hundred years old. Traditional Judaism was not Haredi, stressed leniencies, and interacted with the modern world. The greatest Hakhamim of all time, such as Rambam and Yehudah HaNassi, would feel much more at home in a Modern Orthodox congregation than a Haredi backwater.

108 posted on 11/06/2011 6:00:24 PM PST by ChicagoHebrew (.)
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To: Petrosius
You missed the point that the charge was not that they were Jewish but that they were in a treasonous conspiracy to subvert the Catholic state. The Spanish Inquisition was an instrument of the Spanish state, not the Catholic Church. I am not saying that this was a just action but this is quite different from the false charged that Jews were targeted for execution because they were Jews.

You are incorrect. The Inquisition was an instrument of the Church itself. In fact, its direct descendant, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, survives today as an office office within the Church, and was until 2005 headed by the future Pope Benedict XVI. The Inquisition's tribunals were entirely ecclesiastical, were conducted by priests, and under canon law.

It would be more accurate to say "the Inquisition targeted Jews who had been forced or coerced to have insincere conversions to Christianity on pain of death, exile, and/or abject poverty; it employed torture, and often handed over those Jews to secular authorities for execution."

109 posted on 11/06/2011 6:07:01 PM PST by ChicagoHebrew (.)
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To: ChicagoHebrew; American in Israel

A quick post before I retire but there were two different and distinct Inquisitions. It was the Roman Inquisition that was set up by the Church to combat the Albigensians in southern France. It never operated in Spain. The Spanish Inquisition was established by the Spanish crown and served the interests of the state, not those of the Church. Its attacks against the Conversos were a product of the state to eliminate those who were feared to be politically subversive; its purpose was not to target Jews to force their conversion. Failure to understand this distinction is a failure to understand history.


110 posted on 11/06/2011 7:50:04 PM PST by Petrosius
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To: Petrosius
Its attacks against the Conversos were a product of the state to eliminate those who were feared to be politically subversive; its purpose was not to target Jews to force their conversion. Failure to understand this distinction is a failure to understand history.

Sigh. Its purpose was pretty clearly to target Jews and Muslims who, the Church believed, had insincerely converted to Catholicism. Why did they insincerely convert? Because they were threatened with death, exile, or loss of property. Study up on the massacres committed in 1391, which were incited by the Archdeacon of Ecija, or the conditions imposed on Jews in 1492. If Spain hadn't forced or coerced Jews to convert, often on pain of death, it wouldn't have had the problem of "insincere" converts to go after through an Inquisition. Do you deny the century of massacres, oppression and hatred that preceded the expulsion? Do you excuse it? Do you really think it matters that much if some people who aren't super history scholars attribute those atrocities to the Inquisition, instead of local priests, angry Christian mobs, and the Spanish crown?

111 posted on 11/06/2011 8:02:03 PM PST by ChicagoHebrew (.)
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To: ChicagoHebrew; Mandingo Conservative
The poster at #26 says he is retelling something told to him. Assuming the claim is viciously false, then the one who intended to deceive, the liar, is whoever told him the story.

The story reminds me of claims made about Mormon temple ceremonies and the anointing of private body parts. And likewise Mormon Freepers may accuse the poster of vicious error but he must not read the other Freeper's mind, i.e. that he intended to deceive.

Flame wars easily ignite when posters turn from issues to persons. Condemning the statement in no uncertain terms is not "making it personal." Debunking it is not "making it personal." Telling the poster he has been fed false information is not "making it personal."

112 posted on 11/06/2011 8:41:45 PM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: Petrosius

“libelous” ? Don’t make me laugh. Your revisionism is what stinks.


113 posted on 11/06/2011 9:03:51 PM PST by Tzfat
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To: Petrosius
So many Sephardi Jews thought they were being threatened - and all of this time, the torture, murder, and seizure of property… While the Jews in Spain were indeed faced with many injustices, this it is a vast and libelous exaggeration; it is the creation of a myth...

I can't tell if you're just supremely ignorant, or something much worse. Denying the massacres, torture, and property seizures that Sephardi Jews encountered en masse between 1391 and 1492 is denying history (not to mention the expulsion in 1492, which directly caused thousands of deaths in transit, and the Inquisition thereafter of conversos who secretly practiced Judaism). It is on par with denying the Holocaust. Learn your history.

114 posted on 11/06/2011 9:17:43 PM PST by ChicagoHebrew (.)
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To: ChicagoHebrew

Petronius makes up his own history.


115 posted on 11/06/2011 9:32:46 PM PST by Tzfat
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To: Zionist Conspirator
Yes. It's called "Theocracy." Ever heard of it?

Yes, I have. Historically, it is a concept with a singularly foul odor.

(whom you look on as proto-chr*stians)

Drop the attempted mind-reading.

. then you are against Judaism, the true religion.

Wrong, "Chico". The true religion is Christianity. If you have a problem with that, I suggest you keep it to yourself.

And then (to quote Razor Ramon), you an' me got a really big problem, Chico!

Your problems, again, are your own. Again, I suggest you keep them to yourself.

And yes, I do suggest that folks refrain from mass murder. And, for that matter, that they refrain from such disgusting behaviour as spitting on their opponents. I am very much against cultures which condone these things.

Once more, if you have a problem with that, I suggest that you keep it to yourself.

116 posted on 11/06/2011 10:09:35 PM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: ArrogantBustard
The true religion is Christianity. If you have a problem with that, I suggest you keep it to yourself.

I'd suggest you look up the phrases "free country" and "First Amendment." You don't like what ZC says, don't listen to him or read his posts. Personally, I find pretty much all missionizing annoying, whether its Christian, Jewish, Muslim or Bahai. But "suggesting" that people should "keep" religious views you don't agree to themselves is anti-American.

117 posted on 11/06/2011 10:25:02 PM PST by ChicagoHebrew (.)
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To: ChicagoHebrew

Hehe. Sure seems to me that, given recent developments, a whole bunch of zotted posters are owed an apology and should be invited back from exile to Stormfront!


118 posted on 11/06/2011 10:40:45 PM PST by jjotto ("Ya could look it up!")
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To: ChicagoHebrew
Any hostile tone I have taken with that individual is in response to his hostility toward me. You will find the context for my remarks to him in his prior remarks to me.

BTW, in your opinion is spitting on folks with whom one disagrees (even to the point of considering their religion false and idolatrous) an acceptable behaviour? That's what this thread is really about, not that other individuals beliefs with which I disagree.

But "suggesting" that people should "keep" religious views you don't agree to themselves is anti-American.

I did not suggest that he keep his religious views to himself, I suggested that he keep his "problems" (his word, not mine) with other folks beliefs to himself. If he wants a fight, I'm not terribly interested in obliging him.

119 posted on 11/06/2011 10:48:55 PM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Religion Moderator

I am sorry for posting this. I thought it would be similar to the subject at hand. This is not a lie on my part. It was something that was told to me, and that I have found very disturbing. I hope it is not true.


120 posted on 11/07/2011 5:04:43 AM PST by Mandingo Conservative (Satan was like the first "community organizer", just ask Eve, the first liberal useful idiot!)
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To: Mandingo Conservative

I do not believe in the goals of Storm Front as I know fellow Freepers do not believe in them also.


121 posted on 11/07/2011 5:07:40 AM PST by Mandingo Conservative (Satan was like the first "community organizer", just ask Eve, the first liberal useful idiot!)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
You're forgetting that from my perspective Catholicism is not a true religion, so the analogy falls flat.

The anology doesn't fall flat at all, and the "perspective" sounds like a Jewish version of Aryanism.

122 posted on 11/07/2011 5:25:16 AM PST by Hacksaw (I don't hate Mormons. Is that okay?)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
Stop expecting Jews to act as if they were!

Yet you (since you are responding personally) expect Christians (and especially Catholics) to act like Jews. And you aren't even a Jew, just a member of a wierd Jewish veneration cult.

123 posted on 11/07/2011 5:28:42 AM PST by Hacksaw (I don't hate Mormons. Is that okay?)
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To: Religion Moderator; American in Israel

I’m not following your logic with regards to post #26. The post is just screaming antisemitic buffoonery. But it ain’t kosher to criticize because the poster is saying its true? What if said poster claimed that his friend “who never lied” knew that Christian kids were being killed and their blood used to make matzo or that the Protocols were legit?

With all due respect, please pull post #26. Its disgusting and has no place on FR.


124 posted on 12/02/2011 9:51:21 PM PST by KantianBurke (Where was the Tea Party when Dubya was spending like a drunken sailor?)
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To: KantianBurke
The primary guideline on the Religion Forum for "open" threads is to "discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal."

Accusing another Freeper of telling a lie attributes motive to him, the intent to decieve. It is "making it personal." Words such as "false" "wrong" "error" do not attribute motive.

In the case at hand, the inflammatory claim may be debunked, ridiculed, shown to be false, etc. all without "making it personal."

Removing the post would be inappropriate because inflammatory claims happen routinely in "open" RF debate, i.e. similar claims are not removed. "Open" RF debate is in a "town square format." Thick skin is required.

125 posted on 12/02/2011 10:01:35 PM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: Religion Moderator

“Removing the post would be inappropriate because inflammatory claims happen routinely in “open” RF debate”

How do you square that policy with the following:

“Please: NO profanity, NO personal attacks, NO racism or violence in posts.”

This is Jim Robinson’s site and he can run it as he sees fit. However, IMHO, leaving up blatant antisemitic posts on FR is a bad idea.


126 posted on 12/02/2011 10:10:53 PM PST by KantianBurke (Where was the Tea Party when Dubya was spending like a drunken sailor?)
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To: KantianBurke
A very similar claim is made routinely about secret Mormon induction ceremonies. That the secret ceremony claim in this case applies to Orthodox Jews instead of Mormons does not make the claim itself more hateful or outrageous than what they deal with routinely.

Are you saying that the Jewish Freepers need more protection from inflammatory claims than the Mormons or Catholics or Calvinists or whatever?

127 posted on 12/02/2011 10:29:38 PM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: Religion Moderator
I'm saying ANY and ALL racist, antisemitic, bigoted posts should be removed. Leaving them up unhindered imbues FR with an unwarranted stink.
128 posted on 12/02/2011 10:35:42 PM PST by KantianBurke (Where was the Tea Party when Dubya was spending like a drunken sailor?)
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To: Will75
The spitters tend to be anti-zionist Haredim. Halevy has his panties in a twist about Hardal, Religious Zionist Haredim.
And it isn't the fault of the Hardal that Halevy doesn't have enough kids and wants to do abet Iran's nuclear program.
129 posted on 12/02/2011 11:38:20 PM PST by rmlew ("Mosques are our barracks, minarets our bayonets, domes our helmets, the believers our soldiers.")
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To: marshmallow

Westboro Jews?


130 posted on 12/02/2011 11:52:13 PM PST by Rightwing Conspiratr1
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To: Mandingo Conservative

Either you are a liar or the convert is.

That story is total BS. Never happened. Rabbis cannot be in front of naked women who are not their wives. They aren’t interested in Jesus or the NT.


131 posted on 12/03/2011 7:03:36 AM PST by dervish (female candidates: the last frontier)
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To: dervish

Jews should remain aware of what Christians REALLY believe of them.


132 posted on 12/03/2011 7:14:11 AM PST by jjotto ("Ya could look it up!")
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