The Old Testament Canon (An Eastern Orthodox perspective)

Conciliar Press ^ | David Lieuwen

[one Lord one faith one baptism]

what our non-catholic FRiends don’t seem to understand is the Catholic Church has been contending with unbelievers for 2,000 years, whether we are talking about jews, arians, gnostics, muslims, etc etc. the fact that 16th century sects arose was just more error to contend with.

[Belteshazzar]

patlin wrote:
“According to Christendom, the Messiah came to break the Abrahamic covenant and side with pagan worshipers. “

That, of course, is completely and categorically untrue. Does it bother you to mischaracterize and misrepresent others? Or is that permitted under your interpretation of Mosaic law?

[HarleyD]

Do you include the Orthodox in that who left around 1,000 AD? After all, both churches excommunicated each other for a while there.

So are you prepare to tell us the Eastern Orthodox doctrine is in error? Be careful how you answer. The Catholic Church is more about politics these days than theology. Why, you might even find the pope kissing the Koran and saying we all worship the same God of Abraham. Certainly the Catholics here wouldn't disagree with that would they?

[patlin]

The Mosaic Law(Torah) is attached to the Abrahamic Covenant. They are not and never have been separate from each other. So when Christendom cast off the Mosaic saying it was nailed to the cross, they also cast off the Abrahamic Covenant that the Mosaic law was put in place to separate & protect YHVH’s children from the children of the world. One can not be in covenant if one doesn't accept the terms of the covenant which is Torah, "The WORD" made flesh. The Word that was in the beginning, was with YHVH & was YHVH. "The Word" that has never changed, nor will ever change. (Mt 5:18 Yes indeed! I tell you that until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud or a stroke will pass from the Torah -- not until everything that must happen has happened.)

Is this statement harsh, yes. Is this statement true, absolutely & unequivocally yes.

[Belteshazzar]

patlin wrote:
“Is this statement harsh, yes. Is this statement true, absolutely & unequivocally yes.”

patlin has no idea of what patlin is talking about.
Is this statement harsh, yes.

patlin does not understand the most basic things about Christianity or Christian doctrine and has therefore no veracity whatever when it comes to commenting about or critiquing Christendom.
Is this statement true, absolutely & unequivocally yes.

That about does it. I think I’m done with this ... and you.

[rzman21]

I’d say you are setting up a nice little strawman by charging that the Catholic Church is more about politics than theology these days.

I think a similar charge could be levied against conservative Evangelicals who mix American nationalism with their theology.

The Catholic Church has done a considerable amount to reach out to the Orthodox.

The excommunications between the Church of Rome and Church of Constantinople were lifted in 1965, but the schism hasn’t ended.

My own Church, the Melkite Catholic Church, maintained a double communion with Rome and Constantinople throughout the 17th century until political pressure led to the fragmentation of Church of Antioch into Catholic and Orthodox factions.

My patriarch describes us as Orthodox in communion with Rome because our theology and liturgical patrimony is Orthodox, but we in union with the Pope of Rome.

There are a lot of Catholics who were scandalized by Pope John Paul II’s excessive diplomacy.

[one Lord one faith one baptism]

the Orthodox hold the Catholic Faith and have valid sacraments since their bishops have been validly ordained.

[patlin]

I spent 49 yrs of my life in Christendom, thus I am qualified to speak of the false aspects of its doctrine.

Ex 12:49 “One law shall be for the native-born and for the stranger who dwells among you.”

1 John 2:4 Anyone who says, “I know him,” but isn't obeying his commands is a liar - the truth is not in him. 5 But if someone keeps doing what he says, then truly love for God has been brought to its goal in him. This is how we are sure that we are united with him. 6 A person who claims to be continuing in union with him ought to conduct his life the way he did. 7 Dear friends, I am not writing you a new command. On the contrary, it is an old command, which you have had from the beginning

Deut 4:40 “Therefore, you are to keep his laws and mitzvot which I am giving you today, so that it will go well with you and with your children after you, and so that you will prolong your days in the land ADONAI your God is giving you forever.”

Maybe you can tell me what part of one law forever, for everyone, Christendom does not understand?

[Belteshazzar]

patlin, I don’t care whether you spent 149 years of your life in Christendom, it does not mean you understand much of anything much less that you are qualified to speak with any kind of authority or veracity. Saying such things as, “According to Christendom, the Messiah came to break the Abrahamic covenant and side with pagan worshipers,” tells me that you are either deliberately saying what you know to be untrue in order to provoke or that you really do not understand Christianity. I choose to err on the side of charity and believe that you are simply lacking in understanding.

So, let me ask you this simple question: What is the “proper” translation of Genesis 6:5? And does this verse include you in its evaluation of mankind?

[patlin]

I do not speak my words, I put forth the words of YHVH and I let Him speak for Himself. I also have made no evaluation of any person, only that of religious doctrine per freeper rules regarding religious threads.

The doctrine you follow, which is the doctrine I left, says that the Mosaic laws are for Jews only and since according to YHVH, the Mosaic laws are attached to the Abrahamic covenant and are never to be separated, then if a doctrine casts off the Mosaic laws, it has cast off the Abrahamic covenant because it never accepted it to begin with. John 7:16 Jesus answered them and said, “My doctrine is not Mine, but His who sent Me." How does one reconcile religious doctrine that dismisses the terms of the covenant?

John 14 - the “if you love me” chapter says doctrine that loves YHVH does not cast off His doctrine for that of man.

[jjotto]

So which is it? There was a whole Jewish Septuagint long before the arrival of Christianity, or, the Jewish canon wasn’t fixed until after Christianity arrived (so they knew which books to include in the Septuagint)?

The original Septuagint was of the Five Books of Moses only, and easily predates subsequent unofficial translations of some Prophets and Writings. Where would one find a complete copy of the original Septuagint, whatever it was?

[Cronos]

Technically the Orthodox never "left" and even now both Churches are part of the One Holy Apostolic Catholic Church. The Churches did not excommunicate each other (you excommunicate an individual) rather the heads in the 11th century did it to each other and those were rescinded.

Why are you trying to cause divisions -- that is abetting the work of Satan.

[Cronos]

Yes, HarleyD’s strawmen. A poster who accepts Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons etc as Christian yet builds up strawmen — what is that?

[Honorary Serb]

The entire Septuagint was pre-Christian, and the New Testament quotes from it, including Pentateuch, Psalms, Prophets, etc. Philo and Josephus (both Jews, Philo died before Christ was born) held it in great respect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septuagint

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septuagint_manuscripts

Having entire ancient manuscripts in one’s hands that date near when the original was completed is always a problem. (If one thinks about Homer, one sees this without all the controversies that accompany anything to do with the Bible.) The first complete Hebrew Bible manuscript we have is relatively late, too.

[jjotto]

Nice try!

It’s not whether there were Jewish translations, it whether what the Church now calls the Septuagint is the same as what Jews called the Septuagint before Jesus. It is manifestly not.

[Belteshazzar]

patlin, I see that you will not supply me with the “proper” translation of Genesis 6:5, and answer the question: Who is it speaking of?

What is the “proper” translation of Ezekiel 18:4? And, after that, answer each of the following questions Ezekiel poses after that:
Are you just?
Do you do what is lawful and right?
Have you participated in any pagan rites (”eaten on the mountains”)?
Have you ever lifted up your eyes to the idols of the house of Israel?
Have you ever defiled your neighbor’s wife/husband?
Have you ever approached (or been approached if you are a woman) a woman in her impurity?
Have you ever oppressed anyone?
Have you restored every debt?
Have you never taken what is not yours?
Have you always given bread to the hungry?
Have you always clothed the poor?
Have you never taken advantage of anyone by lending?
Have you never benefited from interest on your principle?
Have you always withdrawn your hand from iniquity?
Have you always executed true judgment between people?
Have you always walked in God’s statutes?
Have you faithfully kept God’s judgments?
If so, God calls you just.
And you will live.

Have you done all that? Not just in the last few days/months/years, but how about the first 49 years?

Are you just as God, the living God, the God of Israel, the Creator of heaven and earth defines just?

Or have you sinned?

Whatever you answer me is one thing. What you answer Him who reads every heart is another. And, remember your own quotation, God doesn’t change.

Are you just?

[FormerLib]

Why put in that amount of effort when you can just come up with your own personal interpretation which you then declare to be infallible?

[Belteshazzar]

patlin, I see that you will not supply me with the “proper” translation of Genesis 6:5, and answer the question: Who is it speaking of?

What is the “proper” translation of Ezekiel 18:4? And, after that, answer each of the following questions Ezekiel poses after that:
Are you just?
Do you do what is lawful and right?
Have you participated in any pagan rites (”eaten on the mountains”)?
Have you ever lifted up your eyes to the idols of the house of Israel?
Have you ever defiled your neighbor’s wife/husband?
Have you ever approached (or been approached if you are a woman) a woman in her impurity?
Have you ever oppressed anyone?
Have you restored every debt?
Have you never taken what is not yours?
Have you always given bread to the hungry?
Have you always clothed the poor?
Have you never taken advantage of anyone by lending?
Have you never benefited from interest on your principle?
Have you always withdrawn your hand from iniquity?
Have you always executed true judgment between people?
Have you always walked in God’s statutes?
Have you faithfully kept God’s judgments?
If so, God calls you just.
And you will live.

Have you done all that? Not just in the last few days/months/years, but how about the first 49 years?

Are you just as God, the living God, the God of Israel, the Creator of heaven and earth defines just?

Or have you sinned?

Whatever you answer me is one thing. What you answer Him who reads every heart is another. And, remember your own quotation, God doesn’t change.

Are you just?

[CynicalBear]

I think you misunderstood that post. I didn’t say it was I who would have those “new revelations” and “newly translated” texts. There are going to be many who claim to have a new way to show that all religions should form a cohesive organization of agreement. I’m going to stick with the original text of scripture as closely as I can thank you.

[patlin]

Why can’t you just answer the question of doctrine? Why do you think you have to make it a personal attack?