The Old Testament Canon (An Eastern Orthodox perspective)

Conciliar Press ^ | David Lieuwen

[Belteshazzar]

From the article:
“When the Church began, there were no New Testament books ...”

Of course there weren’t. In fact, when the Church began there were no Old Testament books either: “Then men began to call on the name of the LORD.” (Genesis 4:26)

[kenavi]

What a terrific exegesis! Thank you!

[one Lord one faith one baptism]

thanks for posting.

some seem to believe the Scriptures dropped out of the skies, so this will be very educational for them.

[rzman21]

The Lutheran confessions cite the deuterocanonicals to prove matters of doctrine.

That never made sense for me when I first discovered that fact. Luther rejected them, but Melancthon seemed to accept them.

[CynicalBear]

I’m expecting a slew of “new revelations” and “newly translated” texts in the next few years.

[Honorary Serb]

1. The Orthodox Study Bible was competed a few years ago—I own a copy. So this article is old.

http://orthodoxstudybible.com/

2. Whether there was a Council of Jamnia is now controversial.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Jamnia

Nevertheless, the Jews rejected the Septugint around that time.

3. The author of this article, Daniel (not David) Lieuwen is a great friend of the Serbs.

[LadyDoc]

thanks.

The Orthodox have a longer and more serious memory for the past than Catholics, who often are poorly trained, or Protestants, who often read things third hand.

I wish the churches would unite again: We need the mysticism and long memory to counteract the “trendy” part of the church.

[rzman21]

Greek Catholics such as myself share a lot in common with our Orthodox brethren particularly when it comes to liturgy and patristics.

[Phinneous]

As one of my rabbis taught us in seminary, the Sadducees were very sad, you see...

[patlin]

Of course there weren’t. In fact, when the Church began there were no Old Testament books either: “Then men began to call on the name of the LORD.” (Genesis 4:26)

Gen 4:26 has absolutely NOTHING to do with a religious ecclesia. You might be interested to know that “began to call upon” is NOT quite what Christendom doctrine claims it to be. The Hebrew word Christendom translated as ‘began’ is “chalal” pronounced ‘khaw-lal’ and its meaning is “to profane”. The word “name” is ‘shem’ which also means authority, honor. Given the fact that Cain had just killed his brother and he then took 2 wives (1st case of polygamy)and also the fact that YHVH had been speaking with them all along, a proper interp of Gen 4:26 would be

“at this time began men to profane the honor & authority of YHVH”

Thus the reason the next 3 chapters of Genesis describe YHVH’s disappointment in creating man, the continued refusal of man to follow HIS ways and the great flood that destroyed the corruption that was abound. That verse is a prophetic message spoken by Yah'shua

Mt 24:37 “But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.”

Luke 17:22 Then He said to the disciples, “The days will come when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it. 23 And they will say to you, ‘Look here!’ or ‘Look there!’ Do not go after them or follow them. 24 For as the lightning that flashes out of one part under heaven shines to the other part under heaven, so also the Son of Man will be in His day. 25 But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. 26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.

[patlin]

I just got done reading a “Jesus the Pharisee” by Rabbi Harvey Falk. While I do not support this notion that YHVH only requires gentiles to follow the Noahide laws as there is absolutely no Scriptural basis for it, the book was a great help in understanding 1st century culture & idioms. This notion that Christendom teaches that the Scriptures were read in Greek in the synagogues and the Hebrew schools of Shammai & Hillel is about as far out in outer space as one could get.

2 other enlightening books are ‘Understanding the difficult words of Jesus’ & “New light on the difficult words of Jesus’ by David Bivin are also great sources for understanding the parables Yah’shua spoke. I found it quite interesting that all the parables I have cross referenced thus far were taken from Jewish rabbinic parable literature that Yah'shua had obviously studied and had memorized.

[jjotto]

The Jewish version is that the original Septuagint was the Five Books of Moses only, and none of it survived. The term was then borrowed by Christians to intentionally confuse the history and lend credibility to their revisionism.

And it is mere fantasy that the Council of Jamnia ‘fixed the canon’. There was discussion about what role Aramaic rather than Hebrew could be used and still be called inspired. The canon was fixed after the First Exile. And that’s skipping the major difference between the Jewish view that the Five Books of Moses are primary, with the Christian view that later revelation is primary.

Jews see a natural continuation between the Tanakh and the writings of religious Jews that followed (the Mishna and others), while Christians believed Greek became God’s language.

[Cronos]

From NewAdvent.org in reference to In fact, the early Christians charged that the Pharisees had deliberately truncated the canon to avoid messianic prophecy pointing toward Jesus Christ (see Justin Martyr, Trypho 71–73).

Chapter 71. The Jews reject the interpretation of the Septuagint, from which, moreover, they have taken away some passages

Justin: But I am far from putting reliance in your teachers, who refuse to admit that the interpretation made by the seventy elders who were with Ptolemy [king] of the Egyptians is a correct one; and they attempt to frame another. And I wish you to observe, that they have altogether taken away many Scriptures from the translations effected by those seventy elders who were with Ptolemy, and by which this very man who was crucified is proved to have been set forth expressly as God, and man, and as being crucified, and as dying; but since I am aware that this is denied by all of your nation, I do not address myself to these points, but I proceed to carry on my discussions by means of those passages which are still admitted by you. For you assent to those which I have brought before your attention, except that you contradict the statement, 'Behold, the virgin shall conceive,' and say it ought to be read, 'Behold, the young woman shall conceive.' And I promised to prove that the prophecy referred, not, as you were taught, to Hezekiah, but to this Christ of mine: and now I shall go to the proof.

Trypho: We ask you first of all to tell us some of the Scriptures which you allege have been completely cancelled.

Chapter 72. Passages have been removed by the Jews from Esdras and Jeremiah

Justin: I shall do as you please. From the statements, then, which Esdras made in reference to the law of the passover, they have taken away the following: 'And Esdras said to the people, This passover is our Saviour and our refuge. And if you have understood, and your heart has taken it in, that we shall humble Him on a standard, and thereafter hope in Him, then this place shall not be forsaken for ever, says the God of hosts. But if you will not believe Him, and will not listen to His declaration, you shall be a laughing-stock to the nations.' And from the sayings of Jeremiah they have cut out the following: 'I [was] like a lamb that is brought to the slaughter: they devised a device against me, saying, Come, let us lay on wood on His bread, and let us blot Him out from the land of the living; and His name shall no more be remembered.' Jeremiah 11:19 And since this passage from the sayings of Jeremiah is still written in some copies [of the Scriptures] in the synagogues of the Jews (for it is only a short time since they were cut out), and since from these words it is demonstrated that the Jews deliberated about the Christ Himself, to crucify and put Him to death, He Himself is both declared to be led as a sheep to the slaughter, as was predicted by Isaiah, and is here represented as a harmless lamb; but being in a difficulty about them, they give themselves over to blasphemy. And again, from the sayings of the same Jeremiah these have been cut out: 'The Lord God remembered His dead people of Israel who lay in the graves; and He descended to preach to them His own salvation.'

Chapter 73. [The words] From the wood have been cut out of Psalm 96

Justin: And from the ninety-fifth (ninety-sixth) Psalm they have taken away this short saying of the words of David: 'From the wood.' For when the passage said, 'Tell among the nations, the Lord has reigned from the wood,' they have left, 'Tell among the nations, the Lord has reigned.' Now no one of your people has ever been said to have reigned as God and Lord among the nations, with the exception of Him only who was crucified, of whom also the Holy Spirit affirms in the same Psalm that He was raised again, and freed from [the grave], declaring that there is none like Him among the gods of the nations: for they are idols of demons. But I shall repeat the whole Psalm to you, that you may perceive what has been said. It is thus: 'Sing unto the Lord a new song; sing unto the Lord, all the earth. Sing unto the Lord, and bless His name; show forth His salvation from day to day. Declare His glory among the nations, His wonders among all people. For the Lord is great, and greatly to be praised: He is to be feared above all the gods. For all the gods of the nations are demons but the Lord made the heavens. Confession and beauty are in His presence; holiness and magnificence are in His sanctuary. Bring to the Lord, O you countries of the nations, bring to the Lord glory and honour, bring to the Lord glory in His name. Take sacrifices, and go into His courts; worship the Lord in His holy temple. Let the whole earth be moved before Him: tell among the nations, the Lord has reigned. For He has established the world, which shall not be moved; He shall judge the nations with equity. Let the heavens rejoice, and the earth be glad; let the sea and its fullness shake. Let the fields and all therein be joyful. Let all the trees of the wood be glad before the Lord: for He comes, for He comes to judge the earth. He shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with His truth.'

Trypho: Whether [or not] the rulers of the people have erased any portion of the Scriptures, as you affirm, God knows; but it seems incredible.

Justin: Assuredly, it does seem incredible. For it is more horrible than the calf which they made, when satisfied with manna on the earth; or than the sacrifice of children to demons; or than the slaying of the prophets. But you appear to me not to have heard the Scriptures which I said they had stolen away. For such as have been quoted are more than enough to prove the points in dispute, besides those which are retained by us, and shall yet be brought forward.

NOTE: we should not judge our Jewish friends by Christian standards for editing the Septuagint. As the article points out the religious life of the Jewish people was around the temple mount and rituals, so divergences of texts were acceptable. But this changed after the destruction of Jerusalem

[HarleyD]

From the article: “When the Church began, there were no New Testament books ...”

Just a slight correction. Peter in 2 Peter said this about Paul's writings:

2Pe 3:115-16 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures .

From Peter's writings we can glean; 1) Paul's writings were well circulated, 2) doctrine, though hard to understand, was established and agreed to, 3) other scripture must have been in existance and used in order for Paul's writings to be compared to it, and 4) Paul's writings must have been considered to the same level of standard as the Old Testament writings.

So while there were no "books" per se, there were the same scriptural writings that we now read. And we have it on the authority of Peter no less.

[Mad Dawg]

I had no idea that was in Trypho. Okay, another book to read.

[Mr Rogers]

“NOTE: we should not judge our Jewish friends by Christian standards for editing the Septuagint. “

I’d say the Jews showed far greater reverence for accurately keeping the scriptures than the Catholic Church, at least from the time of their captivity on. It is certainly true that unlearned Jews like the Apostles still were able to quote scripture freely and accurately, while Christians who were not priests often have had their access to scripture severely restricted or completely denied by the Catholic Church.

There was debate at the time of Jesus about the extent of the scripture, with many restricting it to the Torah - but Jesus made it clear he did not. However, a good case can be made that Jesus did NOT extend it to the Apocrypha, and that the Septuagint had quite a bit of extraneous stuff added in.

Also, remember that when the Council of Trent defined scripture as the Vulgate, there then arose a question as to what was the text of the Vulgate...and the first attempt to put a standardized Vulgate out was horrible. And when they listed the books of the Vulgate, they left a few out...

[Mr Rogers]

“Until the mid-nineteenth century, most Protestants accepted the Deuterocanonical books as inspired in at least some limited sense. For example, the original version of the King James Bible, the most popular version of the Bible in English, included most of the Deuterocanonical books. And for many years in England, it was even illegal to publish a Bible without these books. ...

...Most evangelical Protestants in America are heirs of this missionary movement. Consequently, many Americans who take the Bible seriously hold a grave misunderstanding about the Old Testament. They sincerely but mistakenly believe that the Deuterocanonical books of the Old Testament are not a part of the Christian Bible. They are ignorant of the fact that most of the Deuterocanonical books are quoted or alluded to as Scripture by the Apostles, the Church Fathers, and even Jesus Christ Himself. “

Ummm....no. The Apocrypha, which included 3 small sections the Council of Trent did not list but which had been there, was included in the KJV. “Deuterocanonical books” is a term invented after the Council of Trent to describe the books in the Vulgate listed by Trent, although the list at Trent left a few out.

Second, most Protestants did NOT consider it scripture. (”most Protestants accepted the Deuterocanonical books as inspired in at least some limited sense.”) They were considered as good reading, but NOT scripture - a view backed by Jerome and many other Catholic scholars prior to the Council of Trent.

Third, Jesus & the Apostles NEVER used the Apocryphal books for authority. Jude quotes a book for illustration, but that book isn’t in anyone’s list of the canon. And Paul quotes a Cretan prophet, without suggesting the prophet’s writings were scripture. There were many prophets who made many prophecies that were not included in scripture.

“It is written...” appears many times in the NT, but never with the Apocryphal books following.

[rzman21]

What does the Council of Trent have to do with the Eastern Orthodox?

[Mr Rogers]

“What does the Council of Trent have to do with the Eastern Orthodox?”

I didn’t realize this thread was restricted to Eastern Orthodox.

However, if one is going to use the term “Deuterocanonical”, as the article did, then it ought to be remembered that it is a Roman Catholic term to describe what was done in the Council of Trent. It is not interchangeable with ‘Apocrypha’, since the Apocrypha shrank at Trent, and Deuterocanonical describes the shrunk result.