Why I do not believe in the 'Rapture'

[Iggles Phan]

My problem with the 'Rapture' (pre-millenial; pre-tribulation) teaching is that it forces its adherents to actually REVERSE the Person of Jesus Christ to the Devil.

That's correct.

In the 'Rapture' (or Dispensational) scheme the believer is asked to take the Person of Daniel's 70th Week (Who is Jesus Christ at the Cross) described in Chapter 9, verse 27a:

"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, ..."

... and reverse this 'he' to mean a 'future Antichrist'.

Are you confused?

Is this Jesus Christ or Antichrist?

1. The Historic View.

This view is typified by the 1599 Geneva Bible notes. These are the notes of John Calvin, Miles Coverdale, and John Knox to name a few.

1599 Geneva Bible Notes on Daniel 9:27a:

"By the preaching of the gospel he confirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles. Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection."

It's pretty clear that the Reformers believed that Christ was the Person of Daniel's Great 70th Week.

2. The Modernist View (Dispensational).

In contrast however, compare this historic view to the Dispensational view typified in the Ryrie Study Notes (1978). Look who the modernists assign to this very same Person in Daniel 9:27a:

"The prince of verse 26, the Antichrist previously introduced in 7:8, 24-26, who will make a pact with many (of the Jewish people) at the beginning of the tribulation period. But in the middle of the week (i.e., 3 1/2 years later) Antichrist will break his covenant and desecrate the Temple by demanding worship of himself in it."

The difference couldn't be farther apart.

Historic Christianity says that Jesus fulfilled the 70th week AT THE CROSS, but Rapture Christianity (Dispensationalism) says that the Devil fulfills it in a 're-built' temple.

Therefore, Dispensationalism is no less than a frontal assault on the Cross of Christ. It reverses Jesus Christ to the Devil. It is malicious and a pernicious doctrine.

Remember, this Dispensational view was NEVER known until 1830. That's why it is a Modernist view. It was invented by JN Darby and popularized by CI Scofield, two con-men to Christianity.

In the 20th century, carpetbaggers such as Hal Lindsey, Tim LaHaye, Jack (and Rexella) Van Impe, John Hagee and others have made fame and fortune off of this con game. They have marketed this 'Rapture' theology like a cheap box of laundry detergent on TV and radio, and with videos and books.

My hope and prayer is that the Church starts to wake up out of its slumber and starts challenging its pastors, ministries, and teachers. The Cross of Christ is at stake here!

For the Glory of Christ Jesus. Amen.

[Cvengr]

The Dispensationalists force themselves to eliminate Jesus Christ from completing these purposes within the 70 Weeks. Therefore, they are left with Antichrist, which is foolish, absurd, and heretical.

It really doesn't matter what a denomination says, be it the RCC or Bible believing Christians who agree with dispensational doctrine. The Word of God clearly prophecies a people and a prince to come which is not the Messiah, and that prince is overwhelmed by the return of Christ. The last group of Daniel's 70 sevens begins with the signing of the covenant by Israel with the AntiChrist, who is not revealed until midway through the Tribulation. He is not a victor over Christ, rather he will be the great loser in the Tribulation conflict. The object of the Great Tribulation, though is not on the AntiChrist nor the Adversary, but on six things noted in Dan 9:24. The focus of Daniel is upon Israel, and when she will return to righteous fellowship with God and when the Gentile nations would no longer precede that relationship. If this is too problematic to understand, then refocus on other doctrine so we continue to grow in faith in Christ. Eschatology is one of the more advanced doctrines which builds upon a better understanding of more basic doctrines. That is why the Church has taken some 2000 years to better grasp the doctrines in eschatology. It is also why those with dispensational leanings tend to study both the OT and NT Scriptures rigorously before continuing in their studies on eschatology.

[Iggles Phan]

“Nothing in the passage you quote relates to the Rapture. It isn’t a Rapture passage.”

Answer:

But the Dispensational Time divisions are based on cutting up these 70 Weeks. Therefore, without tampering with these 70 Weeks, the so-called pre-millenial rapture could never take place.

For example:

a) Dispensationalists stop the prophecy clock at the 69th Week. ...Why? ... So they can stick in a forced 2,000+ year ‘gap’ which is the precept for the ‘rapture’.

Take away this contrived ‘gap’ and you take away any possibility of a ‘rapture’.

b) Dispensationalists hang the 70th Week out like a carrot to be chased by a donkey in front of the wagon. Instead of 490 years (7 x 70), the timeline for this preophecy now over 2,400 years in the making.

Take a way the contrived ‘gap’ and you take away yhe possiblity of a future (to us) 70th Week. Hence again, there is no possiblity of a ‘rapture’.

This why the ‘system’ of cutting up the 70 weeks is essential to the Dispensationalist, if their ‘rapture’ is to be ‘worked out’.

Of course, anyone who looks at it will see that all of these ‘gaps’, and reversals, and eschatological gymnastics are unscriptural. They eminate from the cunning mind of man.

So this why a complete understanding of Daniel’s 70 weeks and Who the Person of the 70th Week is crucial to understand how Darby, Scofield, and other Dispensationalists undermined the Gospel.

[Iggles Phan]

“El Shaddai, The Great I AM

is the furthest thing possible from flippant.”

Answer:

Then how come you avoid my question on your reversal flippancy. Again:

Since Jesus (Messiah) fulfills the first 69 Weeks (we both agree there), why suddenly do Dispensationalists reverse the 70th Week to Antichrist?

Does Antichrist end trangsression and sin?

Please answer these question directly instead of making public pious platitudes here. Your credibility is at stake.

[CynicalBear]

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

I Thessalonicenses 4:17 deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus Caught up (Greek: harpazo - to seize, carry off by force)

Caught up (Latin: rapiemur - shall be caught up)

English Rapture.

[Iggles Phan]

So, this EXACT same pattern also follows in verse 27.

Jesus confirms the covenant and causes the sacrifices and oblations to cease in the midst of the week.

For the overpouring of desolations ... a military commander.

Therefore you prove my point.

Scripture itself defines Jesus as the fulfillment of Daniel’s 70th Week.

[Faith-Hope]

Larry, I think you are so right. I put my trust in God and never worry about what is in the future.

[Not gonna take it anymore]

13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

How on earth do you get the Rapture from this?

[Iggles Phan]

“The claim that is attempted in this thread to say that the birth and death of Jesus Christ is the Abomination of Desolation is nothing less than revolting.”

Answer:

Your statement is an obvious strawman. Again,

Your basic argument says that the ‘he’ for verse 27 is the same throughout the entire verse, and since the second half of this verse deals with the ‘overspreading of abominations’, then this must be the ‘antichrist’.

However, such an argument excludes context. If one were to apply that same logic to the previous passage, verse 26, then one would have a conflict, because the first half of the verse is clearly the Messiah, and the second half of the verse is the ‘people of the prince’.

Let’s look at this:

26: And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah (A) be cut off, but not for himself: ... and .... the people of the prince (B) that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

NOTICE THAT THE SUBJECT CHANGES AFTER THE CONJUNCTIVE!!!

27: And he (A) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he (A) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, ... and ... for the overspreading of abominations he (B) shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

LIKEWISE, THE SAME PATTERN IN THIS VERSE!!!

Note that both of these verses, 26 and 27, are CONJUNCTIVE (e.g. two complete sentences, with two different subjects, joined together by the conjunctive ‘and’) in their construct.

So, the first half of the conjunctive deals with the Messiah (A), and the second half of the conjunctive deals with a completely different subject, e.g. the ‘people of the prince’ (B).

Therefore to be consistent, one would expect each verse to resemble an A-B, A-B construct.

Dispensationalism violates this Scriptural pattern by using an A-B, B-B construct!

This is one Scriptural reason why Jesus, not Antichrist, fulfills the 70th Week.

Christian ... Does lying about another’s position really make you feel that good?

[Cvengr]

My understanding doesn’t come from dispensationalists. It comes from directly reading Daniel and his report from Gabriel. Gabriel delivered the message of the division of the 70 sevens into three groups and indicated the Messiah would be cut off, to be followed by another.

Time is short. The Rapture is imminent.

[Not gonna take it anymore]

Iggles Phan, it really used to bother me when Quix would post his diatribes against the Church.

But I’m fine now. I just laugh. We will all have to answer to Christ at the end of our lives and I’m thinking that there are some here who will find out that Purgatory is real.

It causes me much amusement. ;-0)

[Iggles Phan]

“The last group of Daniel’s 70 sevens begins with the signing of the covenant by Israel with the AntiChrist”

Challenge:

Where in the Bible does it say that?

Hint: There is no reference to Satan making a covenant with anyone in the Bible. God makes a covenat with Israel only!

---

“If this is too problematic to understand, then refocus on other doctrine so we continue to grow in faith in Christ. Eschatology is one of the more advanced doctrines which builds upon a better understanding of more basic doctrines.”

Answer:

This sounds like either a cop-out or a surrender.

If the truth be known, I am not arguing ‘eschatology’.

I am arguing for the correct identification of Daniel’s 70th Week: Jesus Christ.

This is a noble argument since much of the church world has turned he Gospel on its ear by reversing Jesus Christ and assigning the Devil to this 70th Week.

This is actually an issue of loyalty-to, or betrayal-of, the Cross of Christ.

That is why it is essential. That is why it is important.

[Iggles Phan]

“English Rapture.”

Answer:

Wrong. Roman rapiemur.

No English Bible that I have ever read uses the word ‘rapture’.

Are they embarrassed to use it?

The English word ‘rapture’ was made up outside of the Bible, and marketed in pop-culture. It never started as a Christian undertaking.

[Iggles Phan]

“My understanding doesn’t come from dispensationalists. It comes from directly reading Daniel and his report from Gabriel.”

Challenge:

So, where in the direct reading of Daniel do you find a 2,000 year running ‘gap’? Hmmm?

You can read it until you are blue in the face and find none.

No ‘gap’. No ‘rapture’.

Both are contrived by the cunning mind of man.

[Cvengr]

The AntiChrist is not Satan. They are two distinct persons.

[Cvengr]

The more one argues against God’s Prophecy the more they scar their soul. I encourage those who have fallen to the postmillenial trickery to restudy Scripture by His Word instead of their personal interpretation.

[Quix]

WHAT UNBIBLICAL OUTRAGEOUSLY CLUELESS HIDEOUSNESS!

WHAT HISTORY AND SCRIPTURE MANGLING!

WHAT BRAZENNESS.

Not only have they no wits, but no shame either! Sheesh!

[ColdSteelTalon]

Silly me huh?? :)

[Quix]

.

You seem to refuse to respond to the points I make when I do answer you.

I find your testy !DEMANDS! to be arrogantly cheeky to the max.

I find your 'reading' (using the term loosely) of Scripture to be appallingly hideous and the conclusions therefrom some of the most irrational garbage I've ever seen pollute the FR religion forum.

That you seem to truly believe what you post boggles my mind way too much as it is. That you are brazen enough to try and convince others of such abject lunacy REALLY boggles my mind.

I have not the least shred of a hope that you COULD or WOULD carry a fitting end of any genuine dialogue about such topics to the least degree.

I may respond to some of your garbage for the lurkers.

I encourage you to avoid expecting me to respond to your !DEMANDS! . . . to the least degree.

I don't know that there's enough dust on my shoes to shake off against the doctrines of demons from hell in your posts.

The purported issues you raise are easy to dispatch with Scripture and a minimum of 3rd or 4th grade logic.

Getting you to engage in genuine dialogue appears to be about as impossible as my throwing the moon to Alpha Centauri with my right arm.

I no longer care to engage in the futility of trying.

If my seDiments in the above are too wimpy, watered down, fuzzy, wishy-washy, or unclear, I can try again.

[Quix]

Are you

TopCat54 retreaded?

[Quix]

Thanks for the

standard Vatican Ashteroth-Mary-Goddess cult

discourteous unping.