Posted on 12/15/2011 10:14:12 AM PST by Cronos
Sadly, many in our brotherhood would answer “yes” to this question. Denominations have for years taught that it does not matter what church you attend, as long as a person is sincere and honest. Many in the Lord’s church have swallowed this idea. They cry long and hard that there are sincere, devout Christians in any given denomination. It is no wonder, then, that many congregations of the Lord’s church have joined hands with denominational churches to promote or to participate in any number of things. Of course, they consider their actions to have Biblical backing. They proclaim the words of Jesus in defense of their endeavors: "other sheep I have, which are not of this fold” (Jn.10:16). To them, “this fold” represents the Church of Christ (denominational concept of the Lord’s church), and the other sheep outside of “this fold” represent God’s children scattered among the denominations. Does this interpretation have credence? Is it the case that there are devout Christians in denominations? The answer is no to both questions.
The passage under consideration does not support the idea that there are devout Christians in denominations. To the dismay of those who would espouse this soul-damning doctrine, this passage destroys their convoluted thinking. There is no hint of such a doctrine taught in this passage, nor is it even possible that this passage could teach such. The New Testament knows nothing of denominationalism. In the first century, there was one church and only one church (Eph.4:4). Although the seeds of denominationalism were being planted during the first century, these seeds did not bloom until after the close of New Testament times. To claim that John 10:16 deals in any respect with denominationalism is to force a 21st century interpretation on a 1st century passage.
The latter half of the verse under consideration inflicts even more damage upon the idea that there are devout Christians in denominations. Christ proclaimed that the “other sheep” would be brought into “one fold” under the care of “one shepherd.” This one fold is the one church! And this one church is under the care of the Great Shepherd Jesus Christ! Those in denominations follow the voice of Luther, or Calvin, or Wesley, or Pope John Paul II, but they are not following the voice of the Great Shepherd! The other sheep to whom Jesus was referring were the Gentiles. Though there were some Gentiles who sought God, and anticipated the coming of the Messiah, the Jews and Gentiles remained separated. Through Christ’s death, he would bring both Jew and Gentile together in one body, one fold (Eph.2:14)! The Lord’s church today is a fulfillment of John 10:16—both Jew and Gentile in one body under the care of the Great Shepherd.
Are there devout Christians in denominations? No. Are there children of God in denominations? Yes, but only because they chose to leave the safety of the one fold, the Lord’s church, to follow the doctrines and commandments of men. Those who have done so must repent and return to the church of our Lord before it is eternally too late! PM
“I’ve been to many bookstores over the years, both Bible and secular with a bible section. I have NEVER seen any CofC books at ANY OF THEM!”
This seems to be a pretty big issue for you, so I’ll offer a suggestion: Your book store sounds as though it is pretty limited, so you might want to expand your horizons. A large religious book distributor is Christian Book Distributors, which has books from most all the major religious publishing houses (Baker, Wm. B. Eerdmans, etc.). http://www.christianbook.com/
You can search that site by author or title. You might find that it has volumes not found in the “many bookstores “ you have been in “over the years”.
you know the first time I heard of Campbellites I thought it was something to do with Scottish clans fighting “the Campbells are coming, hooray, horray” — put it down to reading McAuslan in the rough too many times when young.
“I was raised in Restorationist church that came out of NORTH IRELAND in the 1890s and infested the world with their beliefs. It is in no way associated with the American Campbellite reatorationist groups at all. This church considers the Campbellites and all others as LOST as they are not legalistic enough. I went with friends to this very Mabelvale CoC while living in Little Rock. I bailed out as soon as I discovered the GRACE MESSAGE of Salvation as they broke the chains of legalism that bound me. I have never looked back. I now go to a Southern Baptist church but am not a baptist.”
I’m glad you got out of a legalistic system and hope the church you now attend preaches and teaches the whole counsel of God.
No He didn't say exactly that, but He did take Frequently about His Divinity and Frequently about Sin.
One who doesn't believe sin has a problem that he can't confess that Jesus died for his sin's can he? And one who doesn't believe Jesus is God in the flesh can hardly call Him Lord (the Lord God Almighty) and meet the 'Test' the Apostle John wrote in his epistles either.
“The Churches of Christ believe that worship should be sans musical instruments.”
That is my belief and that of the congregations I have worshipped in. However, there are some congregations of the Christian Churches who also call themselves Churches of Christ and they use musical instruments.
“I do NOT believe that they’re adverse to musical accompanyment during the Sermon.”
I am not familiar with this practice but since our congregations are autonomous, I can’t say it has not happened.
“That being stated: I believe as much as I’d get along with Churches of Christ, we’d part company on the music and the issue pertaining to salvation that baptism confers.”
I understand.
To answer your question, when I read the Nicene Creed a few minutes ago from post #113, that was the first time I had read any of the creeds for many, many years. Although its wording was different than what I would have chosen, I find no disagreement with it.
The typical member of the churches of Christ would be more conversant with the United Federation of Planet’s “Prime Directive” than he would be with the Nicene, or other historic creeds.
“the thing is that the creeds encapsulate the core beliefs. We all agree that as humans we are open to flawed interpretations — and this was apparent in the early years when people were arguing over the divinity of Christ, etc. the Nicene creed effectively encapsulates what scripture has said about these core matters.”
I find the scriptures themselves sufficient, without having a group of uninspired men reformulate them for me and prescribe what is core and non-core. I also believe it is more ecumenical to let the scriptures rule our faith and practice and it tends to be divisive to require adherence to man-made creeds. Thus, in my view creeds can be divisive rather than unifying.
“The Bible is an awful big thing to go all through, of a Sunday, eh? The creeds mentioned are summaries of Christian belief originating from quite early in Christian history. They are widely held by lots of groups. They are quite short. The three together would take 5 minutes to read, at the outside. I find them a useful filter.”
I don’t criticize anyone who finds creeds both scriptural and useful. I just don’t think they should be bound on anyone.
I didn’t make up my interactions, and I can only assume these people didn’t make up their beliefs. If you’ll read my other posts on this subject, you’ll see that I’m not condemning, I’m sad that ANYBODY is teaching that someone who accepts Christ as Lord and Savior is somehow unsaved.
**** The CoC position is NOT that anyone ever EARNS salvation, which you are seemingly attributing to the CoC. If the ‘preacher’ you ascribe this heresy to was actually was teaching this, he must not have read his Bible much. ****
The preacher was at a different church and not Mabelvale CoC. People in the area often went to both churches so he was a bonafied CoC preacher.
And he often quoted these words...”Faith + Works = SALVATION!”
As for working out “your faith with fear and trembling” is simply keeping the faith and not being distracted. If it meant earning your salvation then it would contradict all Paul had taught.
2 groups, those that are “comfortable” and those who wonder “is this all there is”. Even though there is no central organization there are remarkable similarities.
***Your book store sounds as though it is pretty limited, so you might want to expand your horizons.***
Don’t worry about me. I am just a few miles from one of the best university libraries, which I have used for the last 50 years, and they have all I need. JOHN BROWN UNIVERSITY.
***I’m glad you got out of a legalistic system and hope the church you now attend preaches and teaches the whole counsel of God.****
When I told the Coc preachers of those doctrines, they were so close to the Coc beliefs that I was virtually accepted except on one or two points. But it wasn’t enough for them. I had to be a MEMBER of their church in ALL points, and that was the stickler which broke the camel’s back.
Since then I have been enjoying Liberty in Christ and not bondage to anyone.
“there can be several congregations in a single town that have each come to different conclusions about a subject....”
Then how can there be consensus on what CoC doctrine really is. No wonder the several CoC churches here do not care to associate with each other as each considers itself the “only true church”.
***at least 3 of these groups (LDS, JW, SDA) were founded in NY within about 60 years and 100 miles of each other.***
Christian Scientists were formed thereabouts too, correct?***
Let’s add to that group those little ladies the FOX sisters who started the table rapping cults of Spiritualsim in which people thought thy could communicate with the dead. ask a question and the little lady would “pop” her toe and claim it was an answer from the dead. So many pops for yes, so many pops for no.
**I find the scriptures themselves sufficient, without having a group of uninspired men reformulate them***
How can you call these people “uninspired” as it was these people who safely guarded and passed down the BIBLE to us.
By YOUR standards the translators of the KJV and all other Bibles were vile lost men.
Go to ANY CoC and you will see preachers reading out of bibles translated by what you would refer to as LOST MEN.
What is the difference between the Nicene Creed and a CoC pamphlet by V E Howard or A G Hobbs?
The Nicene creed and the others are believable!
I disagree with you, however you have posted your point calmly and without malice, thank you — can we agree to disagree?
“How can you call these people “uninspired” as it was these people who safely guarded and passed down the BIBLE to us.”
I believe the scriptures are God-breathed. I don’t believe that is true of the creeds. But I won’t take offense if you believe the creeds are inspired.
“By YOUR standards the translators of the KJV and all other Bibles were vile lost men.”
If you point me to the place I made that statement, I would appreciate it. If you can’t, then you’re making things up and I see no need to continue our discussion.
However, I have appreciated the irenic spirit of your comments on this thread.
“I disagree with you, however you have posted your point calmly and without malice, thank you — can we agree to disagree?”
Of course. Best regards.
And yet the entire core of CoC belief can be said by a parrot over and over again!
Acts 2:38
Acts 2:38
Acts 2:38
Acts 2:38
without ever asking why Paul was already chosen by God before he was ever baptized (He is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name...), or why Cornelius exhibited the “signs” that FOLLOWED baptism before he was baptized ACTS 10: 43-45
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