Posted on 12/19/2011 4:02:26 PM PST by rhema
JA, the Book of Matthew is not solely a Protestant book. It's a part of the four Gospels. Catholics use it, just as Eastern Orthodox and everyone else. It's Holy Scripture and has been accepted since the beginning.
Your rejection of it is telling.
Father..son. These are not esoteric terms and their meaning would be clear to anyone hearing Jesus words. A father begets his son and Jesus is so described, only begotten, thus created and called the firstborn of all creation.
i appreciate you sharing your belief, even if I do disagree with it
See the post above.
For that matter, Uri's disagreement with the Trinity is also his point of opinion.
AH, the KJV is DEFINITELY a protestant book. ‘Sorry for your ignorance. Catholics use it? For what? Not mass.
wow -- talking about jumping to conclusions.
Now that I am clear on what common grounds are shared with Uri and with cyc respectively we can have a civil debate.
i disagree with cyc on the creature/uncreated nature of Christ, but he is arguing it from his point of view.
i disagree with Uri that he disbelieves the Trinity, but he is arguing from his point of view too
I cannot debate with both at the same time about the Trinity because they both have utterly different ways of seeing it -- with uri one can debate "we both believe in Christ's divinity, but not exactly how that fits in with the Father and the Holy Spirit" -- we can share and learn
with cyc it is a more basic difference, but it would not make sense to make the same debate with cyc as with uri because a person who believes that Christ is created could say "whooa, why are you wasting my time arguing if God is modal or not when I disagree with the original premise"
I will point out that the Gospel of Matthew begins with "Abraham begat Isaac, Isaac begat Jacob.... Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus who is called Christ” -- note it does not say the Jesus was begotten by Joseph. What we do know is as we read in John 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and [a]dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of [b]the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. -- since "through Him all things were made" -- it stands to reason that He did not make Himself -- All things were made through Him, clearly indicating that He, Jesus Christ was not a created being.
You asked my opinion. When it comes to matters of a spiritual nature I try...try ...to let the Scriptures form my opinions or conform my opinions.
And if you say that’s just my opinion..well, that’s true and I’ll keep working on my opinions.
Yes JA, the KJV is an English version of the Bible based upon the Latin Vulgate. So yes, if you're using the Vulgate for Mass and I'm using the KJV, we're seeing the same text but in a different language.
If it makes you feel any better, how about I show you the same text from the Vulgate?
Mat 6:14-15 VUL - [14] si enim dimiseritis hominibus peccata eorum dimittet et vobis Pater vester caelestis delicta vestra [15] si autem non dimiseritis hominibus nec Pater vester dimittet peccata vestra
Happy now? The meaning of the verse is still the same.
Civil, if spirited debates are possible even among those with wide disagreements. I have enjoyed it but I have to leave for a bit.
If you wish to continue later, I will gladly.
If you want me to call it opinions or beliefs or xxx, whatever we are actually discussing a fundamental difference and this is giving me opportunity to learn more about my own faith while debating with you.
well, I believe it is possible if we know where the other is coming from — it lays the foundation maybe not for agreement but for understand where the other’s beliefs lie. I apologize for bringing up the bit about blood transfusion etc. — your faith choices are your own.
>>>>>Yes JA, the KJV is an English version of the Bible based upon the Latin Vulgate. So yes, if you’re using the Vulgate for Mass and I’m using the KJV, we’re seeing the same text but in a different language.
Source?
Anyway, I’m sick of prot4etants using THEIR truncated Bibles to prove what wonderful Christians they are. Run along, sonny. I have better things to do than read your phony pious sermons. You can quit preaching and start practicing. I’ll be watching.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorized_King_James_Version
The KJV used the Robertus Stephanus Latin Vulgate, along with Theodore Beza's translation of the Greek and the Textus Receptus, among others.
Here, then put this in your pipe and smoke it.....
Matthew 6:14-15 For if you will forgive men their offences, your heavenly Father will forgive you also your offences, But if you will not forgive men, neither will your Father forgive you your offences.
Go for it.
It’s not the Protestant Bible quoted.
Did you not recognize that?
Paul often left out parenthetical statements that were understood by the listener as when he uses the word “panta” or “all” when he describes Christ as the creative agent saying, (see footnote on this verse in the NAB)
“..all things were created through him and for him”.
In 1 Cor. 15:26,27 Paul chooses to explain that his use of “all” has some exceptions so he as an aside notes them.
In Col. he doesn't explain what would obvious, that creation was “dia”, through Christ as an agent.
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