Posted on 12/19/2011 9:39:11 PM PST by LouAvul
The church I belong to, some drink alcoholic beverages and some don't. It's apparantly one of those things that if you do, you just don't discuss it. Our former minister (he later told me) actually made his own wine. But he only told me that after he quit making his own wine.
Throughout the Patriarchal and Mosaical Ages God approved of alcohol consumption. He even recommended it (if you believe the Bible to be inspired). For example, Deuteronomy 14:26. Or, Proverbs 31:6.
The prohibition in the Old Testament is concerning drunkenness. (Cf Proverbs 23:29ff)
Jesus lived during the Mosaical Age, so it's logical to assume he drank alcoholic beverages. It was a perfectly natural thing.
In the New Testament, there is no condemnation of alcohol consumption. There is, however, condemnation of drunkenness. Again, anybody who has spent much time around drunks knows the difference.
Anyway, the reason I ask your opinion is because I always assumed it was condemned in the Bible. I think I may have been wrong. What do you think?
1) Man was given dominion over the earth and authority to make laws. There is no scriptural law that we must drink alcohol, so a human law prohibiting alcohol is not contrary to God's law or scripture. So your whole argument about heresy and false teachings are completely irrelevant.
2) Your third paragraph makes it sound like you believe you can lose your salvation. That's not the case. You can cause God to chastise you, but once you claim that promise, your salvation depends on God and God alone. By Grace are ye saved and not by works. That's why Paul is able to save "Neither life nor death nor...etc...can separate us from the Love of God." Paul is not worried about screwing up.
3) Although the liberal Hollywood and media have chosen to focus on the rise in organized crime, the truth is that many wonderful things also happened during the prohibition era. Church attendance per capita reached an all time high. Hospital admissions dropped by over half. Mental Hospital admissions dropped by over 3/4's. The period was known as "the roaring 20's", a phenomenal economic explosion took place. You're only getting half the story on the prohibition era, you should educate yourself sometime.
4) Your argument that "the only way sinful behavior is constrained is when a person is born again" is clearly false. We have many laws that are quite effective at restraining sinful behavior. Example: Laws against polygamy have practically ended the practice. Laws against murder or theft restrain many people but not all people. You seem to be confusing a person's sinful state with sinful behavior. Behavior can certain be constrained and deterred by human laws. A person's sinful state before God is only dealt with by being forgiven but specific behaviors can certainly be deterred by man's laws.
“I always assumed it was condemned in the Bible. I think I may have been wrong. What do you think?”
It isn’t condemned in the Bible. Few things are explicitly condemned or forbidden in the New Testament — the Age of Grace. “1 Corinthians 10:23-29; (KJV) All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient” Personal soul liberty is something each person needs to draw upon on a case-by-case basis. If what you do may ruin your witness or your health, then it’s wrong.
Simple, Christians have made this way too complicated.
That's like saying, "If it takes you ten drinks to get drunk, you're one tenth drunk." Therefore, you're implying that one tenth drunk is sin.
But there's no such thing as one tenth sin. It's either sin or it isn't. If you're right, then Jesus Himself was guilty of sin. So were the apostles. God recommended alcohol. (Deut 14:29; Prov. 31) Was He guilty of sin?
By your logic it's sin for me to eat a Big Mac. Here's why. If I got really hungry and ate 10 Big Macs, I'd be guilty of the sin of gluttony. If I eat one Big Mac, I'm a one tenth glutton which, by your logic, is sin.
Your logic may be, well, illogical.
That's irrelevant to our discussion. The fact is that they drank alcoholic beverages. What they could or couldn't do is immaterial. They even occasionally got intoxicated. Remember Noah? How about Lot?
God endorsed consumption of alcoholic beverages. (Deut 14:26; Prov. 31)
The whole point of the discussion is that righteous men drank alcoholic beverages, righteously.
Drinking in moderation has nothing to do with that. It's as different as eating a snack and gluttony.
Actually, that's incorrect. 1 Tim 3:6 refers to deacons and says, "not given to much wine." KJV. They're not forbidden from drinking. They're forbidden from drinking much wine.
As far as elders, the Greek actually says he must not "stay near wine." A drunkard will "stay near booze" so as to stay drunk. "Staying near wine" is actually how Strong's Greek/Hebrew Dictionary translates it.
Sometimes we get distracted by erroneous, but well meaning, translations. Sort of like the word "Easter" in Acts 12:4 in the KJV. (The word is actually "passover," not Easter.)
Legalism is as bad as drunkenness.
Good post.
Well duh - a drunk finishes their drink; doesn't walk around nursing it
I'll be wearing a name tag.
Make sure it isn’t that one that reads “HELLO my name is Broster Fooks”
:-)
Hmmm...probably you are correct...
Ha!
The Lord also said, before His Ascension, that when he comes back he will partake in the fruit of the vine, again.
Drunkenness, slothfulness, etc. you should/shall avoid.
Hope that helps.
5.56mm
Grape juice or not, “Ouinos” meant fermented, unless used in the context of “Neos Ouinos” (”new wine”), called “new” because it had not yet had the chance to ferment.
>> “what I will dispute is that the Lord’s Supper “require” wine.” <<
> Where did I say that? <
I will. Come on; it’s bad enough (literally: it IS bad enough to be utterly useless) that people believe that the wine only symbolizes the blood of Christ... now you want grape juice to symbolize wine? In exactly what way does sipping grape juice from privately dispensed cups even resemble the Lord’s Supper?
Certain Protestants I’ve seen... they don’t believe it’s the body and blood of Christ (”Unless you eat of my body and drink of my blood, you shall have no life within you”), they don’t share of one cup (”He took the cup, gave thanks, and said, ‘drink ye, all of it’”), but instead they have all these little, seperate, plastic cups, they don’t read the paschal prayers, and now they don’t want to drink wine?
if you think the process is juice—>vinegar—>wine you obviously don’t know how the process works. Wine vinegar is what happens if fermentations continues too long.
And you are implying that 7/8 drunk is ok??? And like I said, who determines when you are drunk???
I could weave all over the road in my car and still be sober, according to me...
The verses I posted showed the results of drinking alcohol...The picture painted does not put consuming alcohol in a good light...
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