Posted on 01/15/2012 10:10:29 PM PST by bibletruth
— If she was conceived sinless and lived a sinless life, then she didn’t need a savior.—
This topic was much debated in the early Church. The resolution is that Mary was saved in anticipation of Christ’s redeeming sacrifice. See CCC 492
From Catholic Answers:
Let’s take the second citation first. Mary, too, required a Savior. Like all other descendants of Adam, she was subject to the necessity of contracting original sin. But by a special intervention of God, undertaken at the instant she was conceived, she was preserved from the stain of original sin and its consequences. She was therefore redeemed by the grace of Christ, but in a special way—by anticipation.
Consider an analogy: Suppose a man falls into a deep pit, and someone reaches down to pull him out. The man has been “saved” from the pit. Now imagine a woman walking along, and she too is about to topple into the pit, but at the very moment that she is to fall in, someone holds her back and prevents her. She too has been saved from the pit, but in an even better way: She was not simply taken out of the pit, she was prevented from getting stained by the mud in the first place.
This is the illustration Christians have used for a thousand years to explain how Mary was saved by Christ. By receiving Christ’s grace at her conception, she had his grace applied to her before she was able to become mired in original sin and its stain.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that she was “redeemed in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son” (CCC 492). She has more reason to call God her Savior than we do, because he saved her in an even more glorious manner!
Well, let’s go to the Greek interlinear. [http://interlinearbible.org/luke/1-28.htm]
“favored one”. That doesn’t even include the inserted “highly” or “full of” that the RCC likes to inject.
Then maybe you would say the King James is a “recent version”?
Luke 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
>>In fact, Catholics hold<<
Catholics can “hold” anything they want. If it doesn’t agree with or can’t be found in scripture I’m not going to risk my eternal future on what “Catholics hold”.
Is Mary Omnipresent like God? No?
Then to pray to her (a form of communication), you must summon her, unless you physically approach her.
I leave the rest as an exercise for the reader.
—I’m not going to risk my eternal future on what “Catholics hold”.—
If it comes down to your interpretation of Scripture or the traditional interpretation of the Church — the Church that Christ founded, the church to which Jesus commands us to take our disputes, the church that Scripture calls “the pillar and foundation of truth,” well, I will choose the latter.
“Summon” = “A call by an authority to appear, come or do something.” A magician claims to have (a limited) power over a spirit or demon.
Exactly—like answering a prayer.
What a contrast...
We argue for Jesus and use Scripture.
They argue for Mary and use tradition.
Jesus said that if HE is lifted up, HE will draw all men to Himself. The Holy Spirit is the one who directs all attention to Jesus.
It’s all about Jesus and only about Jesus. Nothing else and nobody else is relevant.
Luke 1:46-55 for Mary
Acts 4:12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
Including the name of the Catholic church.
It's a person who saves and that person is Jesus and Him only.
Thanks for posting those references from the Catechism of the Catholic Church. You are encouraging others to learn too.
God bless.
—We argue for Jesus and use Scripture.—
So do Catholics, but we don’t ignore the Church that Christ founded, “the pillar and foundation of truth.” Shouldn’t we take our disagreements “to the church,” as Jesus commands in Scripture? What did He say about those who won’t listen to the Church?
Protestants rarely if ever mention these passages of scripture, perhaps because they contradict the traditions of men like Martin Luther.
satan says; ‘HeY if ya can’t beat them, ;)
1 Corinthians 2:2 For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.
Romans 10:5-13 5 For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. 6 But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 “or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
The church the NT refers to is the body of Christ composed of all believers in Jesus for all time.
There is never any indication that it is an organization or body like that which calls itself the Roman Catholic church.
The word church in the NT has been co-opted by the RC church as it's own and there is no Scriptural support for that.
So the body of Christ, the individuals who are saved and Spirit filled, are the repository of truth in the world since the Spirit of truth resides in us.
As far as taking disputes to the *church* that would be the local body of believers for them to mediate.
God is the final authority By what right do you claim to speak for him, to claim an authority that exceeds than that claimed by the pope? He does not even claim the right personally to interpret Scripture nor to act as pope except in accord with the authority given him by virtue of his office. That authority he believes comes to him from the Holy Spirit. But it seems small enough compared with that which you claim.
The Catholic church is not a being or entity in its own rights either.
The Holy Spirit can only fill people, not an organization or hierarchy.
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The word *right* is *exousian* - “power to act, authority”.
(a) power, authority, weight, especially: moral authority, influence, (b) in a quasi-personal sense, derived from later Judaism, of a spiritual power, and hence of an earthly power.
1849 eksousía (from 1537 /ek, “out from,” which intensifies 1510 /eimí, “to be, being as a right or privilege”) – authority, conferred power; delegated empowerment (”authorization”), operating in a designated jurisdiction.
In the NT, 1849 /eksousía (”delegated power”) refers to the authority God gives to His saints – authorizing them to act to the extent they are guided by faith (His revealed word).
http://concordances.org/greek/1849.htm *********************************************************************
“Ave Maria” is a bit like “Ave Caesar. “ Which is why the painters have Gabriel kneeling before her. Anbyway, none of this has much to do with Mary and everything to do with expression of hatred for the Church. Some of it is unhinged, right?
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