Posted on 01/15/2012 10:10:29 PM PST by bibletruth
1 Timothy 2:5 ...one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
If there is a debate here then it must follow Bible Scriptures to advocate reproofs, corrections, and instructions on how God the Father has ordained and appointed someone other than HIS SON Christ Jesus as that mediator. In light of 1 Timothy 2:5 - there is no debate here since God's Word clearly points out that that mediator is is Christ Jesus, who has been appointed 2,000 years ago between God and men.
” is bearing false witness no more of a sin deserving of hell than stealing is?” —> well, wouldn’t you know more about those two than anyone?
And what do you presume that Mary did not get there before you? I say she was the first in time to enter the kingdom? The first person since Adam and Even to be true free. We will leave aside the immaculate conception, as that is is a subsidiary doctrine. From the moment she said yes to the angel, she was filled with the Holy Spirit in a way we cannot imagine.No mystic has ever been so close to God.
Well, didn’t your mother “produce”you? Paul never mentions Mary’s name, but he speaks of Jesus as “born of a woman.” Mary was that woman.
“… I certainly would not call you heretics, as our sophists do [a.k.a: “elite educated Catholics”], because you do not honor or call upon the mother of God or any of the saints, but cling alone to the only mediator, Jesus Christ, and are satisfied that in heaven as well as on earth each one is obligated to pray for the other. For there is nothing in the Scriptures about the intercession of dead saints, nor about honoring them and praying to them. And no one can deny that hitherto through services for these saints we have gone so far as to make pure idols out of the mother of God and the saints. We have placed more confidence in them, on account of the services and works which we have done for them, than we have placed in Christ himself, with the result that faith in Christ has perished.” http://tquid.sharpens.org/luther_mary2.htm#VII
I see repeatedly that Catholics on this post argue that praying to Mary to ask her to pray for them is like asking someone here on earth to pray for us. Are these equal? Is asking some believer in heaven to pray for us the same thing as asking your mother, wife, children to pray for us?
Let's examine this claim. In the Epistles Paul often asks believers to pray to for him. Now take notice here, the God of heaven appointed the Apostle Paul to say these words, so let's examine other words which God inspired Paul to write regarding prayer (I.E, these are not man made up mens words). Paul in Ephesians 6:19 is asking for prayer that he may be bold to open his mouth to proclaim the mystery of the gospel; not in order to receive earthly things or earthly blessings. Several other Scriptures assert believers to pray for one another: Ephesians 1:16 - believers are to pray for each others knowledge of Christ in wisdom and revelation; 2 Timothy 1:3 - Paul prayer for other believers faith; 2 Corinthians 1:11 - believers to pray for Paul's deliverance from so great a death and that he continue to have strength to trust that God/Christ will deliver us again; Philippians 1:19 - believers are to pray that Christ is preached in boldness and that only Christ shall be magnified, not the flesh of man.
In light of the purpose and motivation of these scriptures (above), which God is inspiring Paul to write, there exists no other scripture verse that alludes to any person asking for some other person who is currently in heaven, to pray for them on earth. The Word of God has no other scripture that describes a believer in heaven praying for an earthly soul on earth!
Furthermore, the Word of God has absolutely no indication that Mary or any other believer saint in heaven can hear earth resident prayers. In order for Mary or another saint to hear earth resident people it would require Mary, or others, to be omniscient; however, no scripture declares that anyone except God is omniscient! Therefore, Mary is not omniscient, which is an attribute that would be required of her in order for her to possibly hear the prayers of millions of people whom none have met each other? For Mary to know some person on earth, she would need to be omniscient! But only God is omniscient! Only God can hear the prayers of missions of people on earth.
On the other hand, when the Bible does mentions prays or speaking with the dead, the reference and topic in context is that of witchcraft, wizardy, sorcery, necromancy, and activities of divination. God's Word strongly condemns this practice, in Leviticus 20:27, it says those that practice praying to the dead shall be put to death by stoning; furthermore, in Deuteronomy 18:10-13 God says that those who practice these things are an abomination unto the LORD and that they use be driven from outside the camp of Israel. In 1 Samuel 28:7-19, Samuel ask to speak with a spirit in necromancy and divination, and in verse 18 the spirit of the dead women proclaims that Samuel did not obey the voice of the LORD regarding Amalek; even though God forbid praying to the dead in Leviticus 19:31 and 20:6. But what result do we find here after prayer for the dead to help Saul: the LORD delivered Israel into the hand of the Philistines - total failure for Samuel!
It is clear that praying to Mary or other saints is completely different than from asking some person on earth to pray for us, as we see in 2 Timothy 1:3, Ephesians 1:16, 2 Corinthians 1:11, Philippians 1:19. We see from the Word of God that praying to the dead has no Biblical basis.
There is another possibility that certainly does not require omniscience. God could reveal the need to Mary or the other saints.
Haven't you ever heard someone say, or even said yourself, God put it on my heart to pray for you?
AMEN!!
When things are so deliberate, I throw attention seeking dogs crumbs sometimes as they are so void of anything good as deception kills robs and destroys.
This is how I interpret the Scriptures. Who is the first human being actually to encounter Jesus? Who is the first to say . yes to Him
And it is presumptuous of you to say that the Spirit informs you but not me.
No presumptuous at all. I read your posts!
Not presumptuous at all. I read your posts!
” 1. We in orthodoxy have always believed and taught that Jesus IS the mediator between man and God “
So why do Catholics pray to Mary and “the saints”?
And don’t try to argue semantics, if you control the language you control the message. Praying to Mary is a left over pagan practice.
Mary and “the saints” are dead and have no more power than you have. When Jesus was on the cross the temple curtain was “rent assunder” meaning there is no longer separation between God and man. There is no need for anybody else to do our praying for us.
Thanks for the ping but this looks like another thread with so much background noise that anything resembling civil give and take will be drowned out.
27 “‘A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own heads.’
Do read the Bible, bt, it is not good to distort it. Leviticug talks of mediums and conversing with the dead. Through God's grace if one asks others, whether on this world or alive in Christ in the next, to pray for us is not the same.
do read the Bible.
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