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To: CynicalBear
Luke 22:19 And taking bread, he gave thanks and brake and gave to them, saying: This is my body, which is given for you. Do this for a commemoration of me.
Luke 22:20 In like manner, the chalice also, after he had supped, saying: This is the chalice, the new testament in my blood, which shall be shed for you.

I believe Jesus Christ.

Others are free to play games, babble like children about crackers, wafers, or whatever sort of hokum they prefer to His Word. Such folks often try that sort of thing to divert attention away from their own admission that they do not believe Jesus Christ and, in fact, think Jesus Christ is a liar. Such folks are free to proclaim that they will not "bend a knee", as some say, to anyone or anything other than their own Most High and Holy Self if that's what they prefer to worship rather than Jesus Christ the Son of God, God from God, incarnate in the flesh. Such folks can even burble allusions to the well known lies they routinely repeat, the fables they prefer to Truth, and whatever else they think will hide the fact that they are not Christian since they believe Jesus Christ is a liar. And as everyone knows, if someone believes Jesus Christ is a liar then they cannot be a Christian who believes Jesus Christ is God incarnate. Maybe they believe Christ was just like their fellow voodoo pratitioners and allowed a spirit to ride Him from time to time, maybe like the Watchtower and LDS crowd they believe Christ is one of many gods. They may even believe they are personally god since they do worship their own, Most High and Holy Self. However, if they believe that Jesus Christ lied they do not believe in Jesus Christ as God.

Whatever such repeaters of fables and worshipers of their own Most High and Holy Self believe, I believe Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ said His flesh and His blood are present in our remembrance of Him. Anyone who denies that His flesh and His blood are present in the Eucharist is calling Christ a liar. It makes no difference whether or not someone can understand how God Almighty, the Son of God Jesus Christ incarnate, makes His flesh and His blood present in the Eucharist. Jesus Christ said His flesh and His blood are present in the Eucharist and each person has to decide for themselves whether they believe Jesus Christ or they do not believe Jesus Christ. If they do not believe Jesus Christ and deny that His flesh and His blood are present in the Eucharist, they are calling Jesus Christ the Son of God a liar.

There is no other question. Not whether a communion Host is God or not, whether a recliner becomes a human when someone sits in that recliner, or whether someone likes the idea of His flesh and His blood really being present in the Eucharist. There is only the question of whether someone believes what Jesus Christ Himself said or they do not believe what Jesus Christ Himself said. If they do not believe what Christ said and by not believing call Christ a liar, they are by definition denying the deity of Jesus Christ the Son of God, God from God, incarnate in the flesh as our Savior. A person can accept what Christ says by faith and believe Christ is God, they can accept what Christ says because it's clear and understandable to them and believe Christ is God, or they can deny what Christ says thereby calling Christ a liar who therefore cannot be God. Whether someone accepts or denies what Jesus Christ said is is a question they have to answer for them self.

Understandably, those who worship their own Most High and Holy Self do not have faith in Christ because they have no room for Christ. Sharing Scriptures with such folks is just like throwing pearls before swine. In those cases :

Titus 3:9 but avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law. For they are unprofitable and vain.
Titus 3:10 A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, avoid:
Titus 3:11 Knowing that he, that is such an one, is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned by his own judgment.

Those who continue to deny the deity of Christ can fool themselves however they like, but they should get used to the idea of hearing, "I never knew you" from the very Jesus Christ they deny is God.

770 posted on 01/23/2012 3:35:12 AM PST by Rashputin (Obama stark, raving, mad, and even his security people know it.)
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To: Rashputin
>>Others are free to play games, babble like children about crackers, wafers, or whatever sort of hokum they prefer to His Word.<<

If only you knew how serious and grown up those words really are. Catholics like to focus on the physical. The physical works for salvation. The physical bread and wine. They tell us the physical bread and wine is what will “give us life” when Jesus says:

Matthew 15:17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? Deuteronomy 8:3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.

Catholics tell us that it’s the bread and wine we eat but scripture says:

Ezek 3:1 Moreover he said unto me, Son of man, eat that thou findest; eat this scroll, and go speak unto the house of Israel. 2 So I opened my mouth, and he caused me to eat that scroll. 3 And he said unto me, Son of man, cause thy belly to eat, and fill thy bowels with this roll that I give thee. Then did I eat it; and it was in my mouth as honey for sweetness.

Jer 15:16 Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts.

Catholics tell us it’s the physical that bread and wine but scripture says:

1 Corinthians 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Catholics of today ignore the words of even those who they claim to be “church fathers”.

Then, having taken the bread and given it to His disciples, He made it His own body, by saying, “This is my body,” that is, the figure of my body. A figure, however, there could not have been, unless there were first a veritable body…Thus did He now consecrate His blood in wine, who then (by the patriarch) used the figure of wine to describe His blood.” -Tertullian, Against Marcion 4. 40

“And in the history of the New Testament by that so great and so wonderful forbearance of our Lord; in that He bore so long with him as if good, when He was not ignorant of his thoughts; in that He admitted him to the Supper in which He committed and delivered to His disciples the figure of His Body and Blood; finally, in that He received the kiss of peace at the very time of His betrayal; it is easily understood how Christ showed peace to.” -Augustine, On the Psalms, Psalm 3:1

“But most of those who were present, by not understanding Him, were offended; for in hearing these things, they thought only of flesh, that which themselves were. But the apostle says, and says what is true, “To be carnally-minded is death.” The Lord gives us His flesh to eat, and yet to understand it according to the flesh is death; while yet He says of His flesh, that therein is eternal life. Therefore we ought not to understand the flesh carnally.” -Augustine, Homilies on the Gospel of John, Tractate XXVII.1

“Now, if ‘everything that entereth into the mouth goes into the belly and is cast out into the drought,’ even the meat which has been sanctified through the word of God and prayer, in accordance with the fact that it is material, goes into the belly and is cast out into the draught, but in respect of the prayer which comes upon it, according to the proportion of the faith, becomes a benefit and is a means of clear vision to the mind which looks to that which is beneficial, and it is not the material of the bread but the word which is said over it which is of advantage to him who eats it not unworthily of the Lord. And these things indeed are said of the typical and symbolical body. But many things might be said about the Word Himself who became flesh, and true meat of which he that eateth shall assuredly live for ever, no worthless person being able to eat it; for if it were possible for one who continues worthless to eat of Him who became flesh, who was the Word and the living bread, it would not have been written, that 'every one who eats of this bread shall live for ever.’” -Origen, Commentary on Matthew, On Matthew 11:14

772 posted on 01/23/2012 6:10:57 AM PST by CynicalBear
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