Posted on 02/01/2012 3:38:01 PM PST by NYer
Exactly.
It teaches that baptism is necessary, that confession, communion, penance, works, etc.
Baptism and, if after baptism one were to break communion with God through serious sin, confession yes. But these are the work of God by which his justice is infused into us. Works however, as I have shown by the quotes from the Council of Trent, do not merit us salvation. The worth of works comes after our gratuitous salvation. From the Council of Trent:
Everything that is said about works refers to those who have already been justified.CHAPTER XVI.
On the fruit of Justification, that is, on the merit of good works, and on the nature of that merit.Before men, therefore, who have been justified in this manner,-whether they have preserved uninterruptedly the grace received, or whether they have recovered it when lost,-are to be set the words of the Apostle: Abound in every good work, knowing that your labour is not in vain in the Lord; for God is not unjust, that he should forget your work, and the love which you have shown in his name; and, do not lose your confidence, which hath a great reward. And, for this cause, life eternal is to be proposed to those working well unto the end, and hoping in God, both as a grace mercifully promised to the sons of God through Jesus Christ, and as a reward which is according to the promise of God Himself, to be faithfully rendered to their good works and merits. For this is that crown of justice which the Apostle declared was, after his fight and course, laid up for him, to be rendered to him by the just judge, and not only to him, but also to all that love his coming. For, whereas Jesus Christ Himself continually infuses his virtue into the said justified,-as the head into the members, and the vine into the branches,-and this virtue always precedes and accompanies and follows their good works, which without it could not in any wise be pleasing and meritorious before God,-we must believe that nothing further is wanting to the justified, to prevent their being accounted to have, by those very works which have been done in God, fully satisfied the divine law according to the state of this life, and to have truly merited eternal life, to be obtained also in its (due) time, if so be, however, that they depart in grace: seeing that Christ, our Saviour, saith: If any one shall drink of the water that I will give him, he shall not thirst for ever; but it shall become in him a fountain of water springing up unto life everlasting. Thus, neither is our own justice established as our own as from ourselves; nor is the justice of God ignored or repudiated: for that justice which is called ours, because that we are justified from its being inherent in us, that same is (the justice) of God, because that it is infused into us of God, through the merit of Christ. Neither is this to be omitted,-that although, in the sacred writings, so much is attributed to good works, that Christ promises, that even he that shall give a drink of cold water to one of his least ones, shall not lose his reward; and the Apostle testifies that, That which is at present momentary and light of our tribulation, worketh for us above measure exceedingly an eternal weight of glory; nevertheless God forbid that a Christian should either trust or glory in himself, and not in the Lord, whose bounty towards all men is so great, that He will have the things which are His own gifts be their merits. And forasmuch as in many things we all offend, each one ought to have before his eyes, as well the severity and judgment, as the mercy and goodness (of God); neither ought any one to judge himself, even though he be not conscious to himself of anything; because the whole life of man is to be examined and judged, not by the judgment of man, but of God, who will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts, and then shall every man have praise from God, who, as it is written, will render to every man according to his works.
And the average Catholic thinks that if they've done enough they can get into heaven with only an extended stay in purgatory to burn off any sins they forgot to confess here on earth.
This is not what the Catholic Church teaches about Purgatory. Those in Purgatory have already won salvation and entrance into Heaven through the merits of Christ's sacrifice upon the Cross. I would redirect you to the quote from Chapter VIII of the Sixth Session of the Council of Trent that I posted in #236.
I would ask you to address what the Catholic Church actually teaches rather than what you might think that average Catholics might believe. There are many Catholics who do not fully understand Catholic teaching just as it is clear that Martin Luther, himself a priest, did not completely understand the Catholic theology he was charged to teach. Additionally, it is easy to misunderstand what others might be saying.
That is NOT salvation by faith. That is salvation by works, trying to merit enough of God's favor and appease enough of His anger to allow them in.
You will not find any such teaching in any documents of the Catholic Church, despite what any Catholic layman may or may not have told you.
CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.
I will remind you that when Catholics speak of faith they mean intellectual assent. You yourself said that this was not enough. The "movement of his own will" is the same as what you described:
When the heart responds to God, the heart is changed and they do what they should because they're given a new heart and new nature.CANON XX.-If any one saith, that the man who is justified and how perfect soever, is not bound to observe the commandments of God and of the Church, but only to believe; as if indeed the Gospel were a bare and absolute promise of eternal life, without the condition of observing the commandments ; let him be anathema.
I thought that you said that intellectual assent, i.e."only to believe", is not enough. Is only to believe without having to turn the heart and will to God through observing the Commandments enough for salvation? This is what this canon is condemning.
CANON XI.-If any one saith, that men are justified, either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ, or by the sole remission of sins, to the exclusion of the grace and the charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost, and is inherent in them; or even that the grace, whereby we are justified, is only the favour of God; let him be anathema.
Again, are you saying that justification is only a forensic declaration by God, that God does not effect a change in us by his infusion into us of grace and charity? This infusion of grace and charity is his work, not ours.
So then you agree that people bowing to a rock statue that is NOT GOD is a sin?
Thanks for your kind reply.
Civil dialogue is great.
Happy for that.
The harsh, abusive, fiercely rigidly haught & arrogant stuff . . . is not nice at all.
I’d still be interested in your candid assessment of the collection of stuff in the Fararro stuff.
WELL PUT.
THX.
I do NOT believe that the
DIFFERENCE is found in the dogmatic church classes.
The DIFFERENCE is found in each heart . . .
each time, each behavior, each prayer.
What is their FOCUS in their heart and why.
If you can read Fararro’s stuff and avoid seeing idolatry, then I’d have to wonder about your eyes, discernment and analysis.
Rationalized catechism ‘legal’ dogma stuff can be quite slick at splitting hairs and rationializing everything from A to Z and back to Inquisition.
It’s a great magicsterical effort at putting thick layers of white-wash on whatever the old men’s power-mongering club decreed as best for the INSTITUTION.
The faithful are usually much more straightforward and simple at a heart level.
The Mary caricature is easily focused on MORE, as your own words outlined.
Yet Christ died that we might have DIRECT ACCESS TO THE FATHER.
Going through ANYone else is an affront to His Blood and an affront to The Father’s gift of His Son in our behalf.
Rationalizing it BECAUSE OF OUR COMFORT ZONES
is NOT admirable nor Biblical.
Besides, it Grieves the authentic Mary, big time.
Idolatry by any other name is still idolatry. Cute sanctioned weasel words don’t help any.
Blasphemy is still blasphemy.
Sorry but I think we part convictions on such scores, too.
I do NOT read Christ in the Gospels as doing
ANYTHING
REMOTELY
like instituting
ANOTHER hierarchical PHARISEE LADEN INSTITUTIONAL PILE OF RELIGIOUS MUMBO-JUMBO
for any reason
—particularly to rationalize God’s fiercely hated idolatry and blasphemy stuff.
Christ had a very straight-forward, clear and simple theology.
When one needs lawyers to ferret out
the TRULY TRUEST TRULY TRUE meanings of a truly critical basic spiritual issues of a walk with God
then the group or individual or institution has already fallen way off the cliff and Holy Spirit has long gone from blessing such horrifics.
It is my pleasure.
I am not exactly smart - there are people on here who get theology far, far better than I, nor particularly orthodox to be honest, but I love talking about God and faith.
It is a guilty pleasure of mine, as the Father who welcomed me to the Catholic Church was very hot on “Live your faith, don’t just talk about it.”
He was from Missouri though ....
Got a deadline tonight, but will read up on the Fararro stuff after I finish and post my thoughts, for what they are worth!
So then you agree that people bowing to a rock statue that is NOT GOD is a sin?
Um, that is in the 10 Comandments. We all have them - not just Christians of various flavors, but Jews and Muslims too.
It is the intent that counts.
Worshipping a statue is, of course, a sin. Using it to focus on God, well then it is a tool.
Think of a statue as a gun, or a hammer, or a kitchen knife. It can be used for harm (mistaking the statue for God) or it can be used for good (a way of focussing)
Going to go new age for a second. You ever tried meditating? One of the basic techniques for a novice is to watch a candle flame. It give you a focus. Eventually, you can work with just the idea of a candle, instead of the physical object. The statue is the equivalent of the candle flame, to orient peoples minds to God.
Problem is, the second commandment deals with actions, not just the heart. The command is to not make graven images and to not bow down to them.
Interestingly, God did not say not to worship them, but not to bow down before them.
Always understood that to mean don’t mistake the image for the real thing. The image is worthy of respect, not as an image, but for what it represents.
Was blessed with the chance to go to Paris a couple years back and see The 3 Graces in the Louvre (skip Da Vinci’s Mona Lisa, you only get two minutes from about 10 feet away)
I crossed myself and gave thanks when I saw them. Beauty is sadly rare in this world and worth celebrating. Was not reverencing them, but the man who made them, and the One who made the man. How often do you see perfection?
Does that make sense?
Same trip, I attended Mass at Notre Dame. Now THAT is a place designed to throw you onto your knees. Glory to God, written in stone by devout experts.
Betting that most Christians here wear a cross. No one reverences the cross they wear, but what it actually means. I don’t revere my rosary, God is not hiding in some wooden beads and a silver cross, but I treat it with respect always.
Intent counts.
God effects change in us by his grace and we grow in that grace as he conforms us into the image of his dear Son. But the righteousness required for entrance into Heaven is not that which is infused into us by our works and merits, rather it is imputed righteousness. Where God imputes the righteousness of Christ to us and we are justified because of HIS righteousness and not our own. From the site http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/Sermons&Tracts/sermon_38.htm:
I shall now consider the manner in which this righteousness is thus imputed, and that is, without works. That this righteousness is imputed without works, is manifest from the character the persons bear, whom God justifies, which is that of ungodly ones, as has been just now observed. If they are ungodly, they are without works; good works, or works of righteousness. If God therefore will justify such, as he certainly does, he must justify them by imputing a righteousness to them, without any consideration of works done by them. And, indeed, if God did not impute righteousness for justification in this manner, justification would not be an act of free grace, as it is always represented to be. We may argue about justification, as the Apostle does about election, when he says (Rom.11:6), and if of grace, then it is no more of works, otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace, otherwise work is no more work. We are said (Titus 3:7), to be justified, not only by the grace of God, but freely by his grace, to express the abundance and freeness of divine grace, in the free gift of righteousness unto justification of life. Besides, if righteousness was not imputed without works, boasting would not be excluded, as it is in God's way of justifying sinners, by Christ's righteousness, without any consideration of them. And, indeed, works are not causes of any sort in the affair of justification, they are not the moving cause of it. For that is the free grace of God; nor are they the material cause of it, for that is the obedience and righteousness of Christ. Nor are they the instrumental cause, for that is faith, nor are they the causa a sine qua non, or causes without which persons are justified, who never performed good works. And indeed those that are justified, are justified, if not without the presence of them, yet without the efficiency of them, or any consideration of them as having any casual influence on justification; for with reference hereunto, they are not to be admitted into the lowest class or range of causes. It may perhaps be said, how then can the Apostles, Paul and James, be reconciled in this matter, seeing the one positively affirms (Rom. 3:28), that a man is justified by faith, without the works of the law; and the other (Jam. 2:21, 24, 25), as positively asserts that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. To which I answer, there are two things, which when observed, will rectify and quickly remove the seeming difficulty, and reconcile the Apostles to each other, which are,
1. They speak of two different things. The Apostle Paul speaks of the justification of a man's person before God, and this he truly asserts to be, by a righteousness imputed without works. The Apostle James speaks of a justification of a man's faith, or of his cause before men, which he also truly asserts to be by works, for wisdom is justified of her children (Matthew 11:19). True and undefiled religion is discovered and bore witness to by good works. Faith is shewn forth, made known, and evidentially perfected by them; in justification by imputed righteousness, a man has not whereof to boast before God. In justification of a man's cause by works, a man has whereof to boast before men, and in some cases with a becoming modesty may say with Samuel (1 Sam. 12:3): Whose ox have I taken? whose ass have I taken? or whom have I defrauded?
2. They speak to two different sort of persons. The apostle Paul had to do with self Justiciaries, who fought for righteousness not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law, who being ignorant of God's righteousness, went about to establish their own righteousness, and so submitted not to the righteousness of Christ. The apostle James had to do with a set of men called Gnostics, who boasted of their knowledge, from whence they took their name. These were the Libertines and Antinomians of that day, who trusting to their speculative notions and historical faith, despised the law, and disregarded and neglected the performance of good works, accounting their knowledge sufficient unto salvation. And this also occasioned those different modes of expression in these Apostles, who otherwise were agreed in the same truths. I go on,
IV. To consider the blessedness of those persons who have this righteousness imputed to them.
1. They are freed from all sin and condemnation, not from the being of sin, but from the guilt of it, and all obligation to punishment (Rom. 8:1). For there is no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus, to them who are made the righteousness of God, in him, they may say as the apostle did (Rom. 8:33, 34), Who shall say any thing to the charge of God's elect? it is God that justifies, who shall condemn; it is Christ that died. And therefore they must be happy persons, for blessed is the man whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sin is covered; blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin, with which words David (Ps. 32:1), describeth the blessedness of the persons interested in this righteousness —
2. Their persons and services are both acceptable to God, he is well pleased with both, for Christ's righteousness sake. Christ's garments smell of myrrh, aloes and cassia, with which his people being clad, the Lord smells a sweet smell in them, as the smell of a field which the Lord hath blessed; their persons come up with acceptance before him, and their sacrifices both of prayer and praise are grateful to him, through the person, blood, righteousness and mediation of Christ's righteousness which is imputed to them, shall never be taken away from them, is one of those blessings he will never reverse, and one of those gifts of his which are without repentance. —
3. It shall go well with these persons in life, at death, and at judgment (Isa. 3:10), Say ye to the Righteous it shall go well with him. It shall go well with him in life, for all things work together for his good. It shall go well with him at death. For the righteous hath hope in his death, founded upon this righteousness imputed to him. It shall go well with him at judgment, for this righteousness will answer for him at that time, and bring him off clear at God's bars and introduce him into his kingdom and glory.—
4. Such persons are heirs of glory, and shall everlastingly enjoy it, for being justified by grace, they are made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Justification and glorification are closely connected together. For whom God justified, them he also glorified (Rom. 8:30). Justified persons may comfortably argue, from their justification, to their glorification, and strongly conclude with the apostle (Rom. 5:9). That if they are justified by the blood of Christ, they shall be saved from wrath through him.
To put Exodus in comfortable idiom:
“I am the one true God and brought you out of Egypt.
There, they worshiped statues and people as Gods.
That is not right.
People are not Gods
Statues are not Gods.
Only I am God, and I proved it by saving you.
Don't make me annoyed, you won't like it at all.”
Slightly irreverent, but it gets the point across, especially since at exactly the same time Moses was receiving the Commandments the Israelites were busily making a golden calf to worship.
These people had seen the power of the Lord first hand and STILL fell off into idol worship almost immediately afterwards.
Not surprising we needed that rule, because we do tend to do that. Put people, things and ideals on a pedestal and make them the focus of our lives, when God should be the focus.
Heck, think of the fuss a couple weeks ago when Newt and Perry attacked Romney about Bain capital. People were reciting “Capitalism” like a mantra, as if it was holy. It is a tool, not a god.
Think of the atheists you meet online - and you will have, we all do. They obsessively worship the scientific method. Again, a tool, not God.
Yet one of our joys as people is being able to create object not just of use, but of beauty. That ability is God given, and all of us have it to some extent.
To me, the purpose of the Second Commandment is a stark reminder - “Yeah, you created that. Nice job. Remember, I created everything so don't get uppity.” Really hope someone with more wisdom chimes in here!
Don’t you love it when you hit post instead of spell check?
As I understand your comment, “So what is the intent ? I don’t trust you enough to go directly to you ?”
it is not about trust. Catholics have the Virgin and the saints as someone to talk comfortably with. As metmom said, we all need people to talk to.
God is always there. But, sometimes, he is a little intimidating - kind of like facing your Dad with a report card full of D’s. He loves us, yes, but he is going to be very disappointed in us.
The saints are a way of hiding behind someone while we present that report card to Him. A way of making it a little easier to admit our sins and failings. A way of talking and admitting our sins to ourselves.
God always knows what we have done and what we need. He doesn’t need us to tell him. He needs us to tell ourselves. That is - or can be - very hard to do, as we are pretty good at fooling ourselves.
Now, I’ll not deny there are some Catholics that, to my mind, get very close to idolatry, especially about the Blessed Virgin. Or relics, for that matter.
Ain’t none of us perfect.
Hope that helps a little!
It’s one of the 10 commandments .
You yourself said you were under them.
If you are under them that means it is for you too
A statue of a cow or a woman is still a statue .
You are basically stating that you can’t understand how they didn’t believe after all they had seen . Well what is your excuse ? You have the entire Bible that tells you exactly what happened and exactly what to do yet you don’t believe what it says .
In essence what you are telling is that was rules for them but not for me .
Ever stop to think that God might see it differently ?
Ever stop to think that he might just see it as you are depending on everything else but him ?
Ever stop to think that you are putting this before him ?
Yeah hitting post before spell check sucks
I do it all the time (you’ll get used to it lol )
especially when I am on my lap top and can not wear my glasses (I have astigmatism and my glasses are set for the distance from the monitor on my desktop - without them my vision is slightly fuzzy ) I keep hitting the wrong keys too on this thing ... grrr hate the straight keyboard .
I do have an entire bible, and enjoy reading it. Including The Apocrypha. (said I was not entirely orthodox)
Let me put it this way - does your church have a cross in it? That is an image, right. A symbol. Would you disrespect it? Burn it? I doubt it very much - no Christian of any creed would. Why not?
Do you have a picture of Jesus? Go rip it up. You would not.
Or take November 11th. Do you wear a poppy in remembrance of the fallen? (Not sure if Americans do that, sorry) Are you venerating the paper and plastic poppy, or is it a symbol of the dead?
A statue is a symbol. A gravestone is a symbol. Would you deface a grave?
We are commanded to not mistake the symbol for the fact.
People do, though. I would no more deny that than I would deny I am typing a response to you right now. Which is why we have the God given commandment. Everyone can be a little dumb at times and need a reminder. He knows that.
Nice post, EC. It brought to mind a passage written by a countryman of yours, C.S. Lewis, in Mere Christianity. I think the point you're making is similar to his, in that we humans (all of us) can be intemperate (or idolatrous) about a great variety of things ... not just the more 'obvious' ones.
Now without further ado, here is Mr Lewis on the virtue of Temperance:
One great piece of mischief has been done by the modern restriction of the word Temperance to the question of drink. It helps people to forget that you can be just as intemperate about lots of other things. A man who makes his golf or his motor-bicycle the centre of his life, or a woman who devotes all her thoughts to clothes or bridge or her dog, is being just as ‘intemperate’ as someone who gets drunk every evening. Of course, it does not show on the outside so easily: bridge-mania or golf-mania do not make you fall down in the middle of the road. But God is not deceived by externals.
Ever stop to think that God might see it differently ?
He may do, and if he does, he will tell me so. He told me to become Catholic, I assume because he knows my need for order and explanations.
Ever stop to think that he might just see it as you are depending on everything else but him ?
That is a constant worry, I cannot deny it. All I can do is constantly remind myself - talk to him. When in confession, I am talking to him, as well as the priest. I rarely ask the saints for help or guidance, but when I do I must always remember, I am talking to Him.
Ever stop to think that you are putting this before him ?
That is never a worry. The rituals and rites of the church are a comfort. Yet God comes first.
Wish I could work out how to do italics!!! Laptops are useful, but the keyboards are always dreadful! Got large hands, so tend to hit two keys at once.
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