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Tornadoes' Paths not Random, John Piper Says [Meteorology Caucus]
Associated Baptist Press ^ | 3/6/12 | Bob Allen

Posted on 03/07/2012 10:24:56 AM PST by marshmallow

MINNEAPOLIS (ABP) – An author and preacher popular in Calvinist circles says it is no accident that recent killer tornadoes followed paths that ravaged some communities while others were spared.

“Why would God reach down his hand and drag his fierce fingers across rural America killing at least 38 people with 90 tornadoes in 12 states, and leaving some small towns with scarcely a building standing, including churches?” John Piper of Desiring God ministries wrote in a blog March 5.

Piper, pastor for preaching at Bethlehem Baptist Church in Minneapolis, said it is wrong to ascribe power capable of causing an estimated $2 billion worth of property damage to Mother Nature or the devil.

“God alone has the last say in where and how the wind blows,” Piper said. “If a tornado twists at 175 miles an hour and stays on the ground like a massive lawnmower for 50 miles, God gave the command.”

Piper said he doesn’t know why if God has a quarrel with America that he wouldn’t show his displeasure in Washington or Hollywood instead of places like Henryville, Ind., but that “every deadly wind in any town is a divine warning to every town.”

(Excerpt) Read more at abpnews.com ...


TOPICS: Evangelical Christian; General Discusssion; Theology
KEYWORDS: baptists; christianity; theology
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To: lupie

I loved what you posted and the poem.


101 posted on 03/08/2012 7:16:05 AM PST by luckystarmom
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To: BuckeyeTexan
To Piper's credit, he says "Let us beware, therefore, of reading the hand of providence with too much certainty or specificity."

He made a similar declaration of God's soveriegnty vis-a-vis the Indonesian tsunami. His point-then and now-is that we fool ourselves if we think that God is not in control of all things. Tsunamis, tornados, tribulations and tumors all serve a divine purpose that may not be known to us. It is not for us to know all things, but to trust and believe.

102 posted on 03/08/2012 7:24:10 AM PST by jboot
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To: jboot

Amen.


103 posted on 03/08/2012 8:53:24 AM PST by BuckeyeTexan (Man is not free unless government is limited. ~Ronald Reagan)
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Comment #104 Removed by Moderator

To: BuckeyeTexan

Since I know that you know that God’s word clearly states that “there is none righteous...,” I would hope that you could better understand the intended meaning of that verse.

How many verses in the Bible are meant to be taken alone, rather than in the context of the whole word? (clue: zero)
.


105 posted on 03/08/2012 9:39:25 AM PST by editor-surveyor (No Federal Sales Tax - No Way!)
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To: marshmallow

Friday, God caused a fierce wind to blow over my neighbor’s big blue spruce. I don’t know why, maybe He didn’t like her beagle......On numerous occasions I would pray to Him to make the darn thing shut up, maybe He was hoping the tree would hit it but missed.


106 posted on 03/08/2012 9:53:33 AM PST by Hot Tabasco (The only solution to this primary is a shoot out! Last person standing picks the candidate)
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To: editor-surveyor

Although babies are born with the sinful nature of man, they (and young children) have not chosen to reject Christ and are therefore covered by the precious blood of Jesus Christ. A sinful nature is not the same as choosing to sin.

Paul spoke of the thorn in his flesh as a messenger of Satan to buffet him. Yet he stood on God’s grace to overcome his weakness. Man chooses righteousness or sin, babies do not.

I did not suggest that any verse in Scripture stands alone without context. In fact, I made it clear that there are many references to the innocent (and the righteous) in Scripture. Yet you rest your argument on one verse concluding that babies and young children have sinned and fallen short.

They have not chosen sin. They were born with a sinful nature - the propensity to sin. There is a difference. If there weren’t, the blood of Jesus would not cover them until they chose Christ.


107 posted on 03/08/2012 11:12:11 AM PST by BuckeyeTexan (Man is not free unless government is limited. ~Ronald Reagan)
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To: marshmallow

Yes, God allows evil. The flaw in the premise of many expressing disdain for Piper’s view is a lack of appreciation for the contrast between the depths of sinfulness in man (even supposedly “good” men) and the a) holiness and b) love of God for sinners.

Is it better for Him to allow them to live blithely and die in their sins or to cause them to cry out to Him and be saved? In that light, such natural disasters are an act of mercy rather than vengeance.

To Him be the glory...


108 posted on 03/08/2012 12:34:35 PM PST by Lexinom
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To: editor-surveyor; POWERSBOOTHEFAN
Then become a Global Warmist.

Joe Bastardi is a meteorologist, do you have a problem with him?

109 posted on 03/08/2012 12:50:40 PM PST by Hot Tabasco (The only solution to this primary is a shoot out! Last person standing picks the candidate)
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To: editor-surveyor
Go back to your knitting you paranoid fool!

Then stay off the Religion threads if you wish to use comments like that...What may be humor to YOU may not be obvious to others.

110 posted on 03/08/2012 1:00:49 PM PST by Hot Tabasco (The only solution to this primary is a shoot out! Last person standing picks the candidate)
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To: luckystarmom

This is by far the most blessed thing I have ever been involved with. They give so much more than you can imagine. We see it as ministering with them, not too them. They are so anxious and excited to learn about God’s Word.


111 posted on 03/08/2012 1:30:52 PM PST by lupie
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To: Hot Tabasco

I recommend that you stay off the RF.

Obviously you identify with thew rest of the liars at the local Warmist society, but no one here does, so you’re out of your element.


112 posted on 03/08/2012 2:29:43 PM PST by editor-surveyor (No Federal Sales Tax - No Way!)
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To: editor-surveyor
Obviously you identify with thew rest of the liars at the local Warmist society

Oh really? How about posting my comments that would lead you to that lying accusation?

113 posted on 03/08/2012 2:33:45 PM PST by Hot Tabasco (The only solution to this primary is a shoot out! Last person standing picks the candidate)
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To: Hot Tabasco

Is there any particular reason why anyone should know or care who joe bastardi is?
.


114 posted on 03/08/2012 2:39:54 PM PST by editor-surveyor (No Federal Sales Tax - No Way!)
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To: Hot Tabasco

>> “How about posting my comments that would lead you to that lying accusation?” <<

.
Comments #109 and 110 would suffice in that area.

You appear to get in a huff when the psuedo scientists are spoken of derisively
.


115 posted on 03/08/2012 2:46:27 PM PST by editor-surveyor (No Federal Sales Tax - No Way!)
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To: editor-surveyor
Is there any particular reason why anyone should know or care who joe bastardi is?

Only if YOU'RE too stupid to know or too ignorant to find out..........

116 posted on 03/08/2012 2:47:03 PM PST by Hot Tabasco (The only solution to this primary is a shoot out! Last person standing picks the candidate)
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To: Hot Tabasco

IOW, there is no reason an intelligent person would wish to know anything about Mr bastardi.


117 posted on 03/08/2012 2:48:53 PM PST by editor-surveyor (No Federal Sales Tax - No Way!)
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To: fruser1

You have “God is punishing you because I am right and you are wrong” in quotes. Why?

Are you misrepresenting this pastor through malice, or through ignorance?


118 posted on 03/08/2012 2:53:50 PM PST by Theo (May Rome decrease and Christ increase.)
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To: editor-surveyor
there is no reason an intelligent person

Since it's obvious you're not talking about yourself, you might want to educate yourself on Joe........but you'd rather engage in a pissing contest wouldn't you?

Fair enough, I surrender to your ignorance and grant you the win.......

119 posted on 03/08/2012 2:54:31 PM PST by Hot Tabasco (The only solution to this primary is a shoot out! Last person standing picks the candidate)
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To: Hot Tabasco

Why is ‘joe’ so important to you that you feel so compelled to inject him here?


120 posted on 03/08/2012 2:59:03 PM PST by editor-surveyor (No Federal Sales Tax - No Way!)
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To: lupie

My daughter has a brain injury. She has been such an inspiration to me. She is much more faith filled than I am.

She never thinks that God did this to her. However, she lives by Jeremiah 29:11 “For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the LORD, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.”

God Bless you for your ministry!!


121 posted on 03/08/2012 3:29:24 PM PST by luckystarmom
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To: aruanan
And if he's going to be a theological determinist in the Calvinist tradition, what he says must also be true about each hemorrhoid that pops out and the exact number and depth of thrusts of the knife wielded by a serial killer or the steak knife of someone sitting in Ruth's Chris.

Yup.

And the alternative is?

122 posted on 03/08/2012 3:38:10 PM PST by Lee N. Field ("And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise" Gal 3:29)
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To: SeaHawkFan
I was referring to hyper-Calvinist churches. I thought I was very clear.

No, you weren't. Do you know what "hyper-Calvinist" means?

123 posted on 03/08/2012 4:22:56 PM PST by Lee N. Field ("And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise" Gal 3:29)
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To: jonno
Most Calvinists are dour folks anyway.

Dour is not an attribute I would ever ascribe to John Piper.

Much of what I've seen so far in this thread (as of post 50) is just ignorance.

124 posted on 03/08/2012 4:24:46 PM PST by Lee N. Field ("And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise" Gal 3:29)
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To: Gamecock
It just amazes me how Christians will spout off that God is in control, until something happens that offends their sensibilities. Then God had nothing to do with it....

Heidelberg Catechism, Lord's Day 9, question 27: "What do you understand by the providence of God?

"A. Providence is the almighty and ever present power of God by which he upholds, as with his hand, heaven and earth and all creatures, and so rules them that leaf and blade, rain and drought, fruitful and lean years, food and drink, health and sickness, prosperity and poverty, all things, in fact, come to us not by chance but from his fatherly hand."

I guess I'm supposed to give that up, in favor of a God for whom the world has slipped from his control, who frets, who has his hand forced, plays the hand he was dealt, etc. For a world in which suffering "just happens" and has no meaning.

Lord's Day 9, Question 26: " Q. What do you believe when you say,'I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth'?

"A. That the eternal Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who out of nothing created heaven and earth and everything in them, who still upholds and rules them by his eternal counsel and providence, is my God and Father because of Christ his Son.

"I trust him so much that I do not doubt he will provide whatever I need for body and soul, and he will turn to my good whatever adversity he sends me in this sad world.

"He is able to do this because he is almighty God. He desires to do this because he is a faithful Father."

125 posted on 03/08/2012 4:37:42 PM PST by Lee N. Field ("And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise" Gal 3:29)
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To: jonno; aruanan
Most Calvinists are dour folks anyway.

Dour is not an attribute I would ever ascribe to John Piper. Perhaps you should look at just one of Piper's sermons - this is a man full of joy.

Excellent point.

I wonder what the daily special is.

126 posted on 03/08/2012 5:40:02 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: marshmallow
Who was Jesus rebuking when He rebuked the storm at sea? Was He rebuking God? I think not. If God is out to wipe out sin using the form of a twister then I can suggest other countries to be devastated rather then the mid-west USA.
127 posted on 03/08/2012 5:49:46 PM PST by guitarplayer1953 (Grammar & spelling maybe wrong, get over it, the world will not come to an end!)
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To: Gamecock; marshmallow; drstevej; OrthodoxPresbyterian; CCWoody; Wrigley; Jean Chauvin; jboot
What amazes me is that very few Christians on this seem to actually believe in a sovereign Lord that controls the universe.

The reason we have calamity in our lives is so that we will return to the Lord. It isn't because of any punishment. It is simply that our hearts have hardened.

Judging by many of these posts, many still do not see the sovereignty of God to return to Him in this. We really have invented a god after our own image.

128 posted on 03/08/2012 6:05:39 PM PST by HarleyD
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To: Hot Tabasco

I’ve never heard of him. Where is he a meteorologist?


129 posted on 03/08/2012 10:26:04 PM PST by POWERSBOOTHEFAN (I love you,Pumpkin. You are the best cat in the world. You're my Sweet Pea.)
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Comment #130 Removed by Moderator

To: editor-surveyor

This “joke” seemed pretty sarcastic to me.


131 posted on 03/08/2012 10:32:22 PM PST by POWERSBOOTHEFAN (I love you,Pumpkin. You are the best cat in the world. You're my Sweet Pea.)
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To: HarleyD

Good point Harley. Instead they ridicule Him.


132 posted on 03/09/2012 3:50:11 AM PST by Gamecock (Celebrating 17,149 replies of dubious quality!)
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To: guitarplayer1953
Who was Jesus rebuking when He rebuked the storm at sea? Was He rebuking God?

You seem to be saying that Jesus is someone who can rebuke God. Jesus IS God, therefore He cannot rebuke Himself. Instead of proving your point, your scripture reference actually shows you to be in error. Jesus is showing that He IS God and able to control the storm - that all things are under His control. This is yet another example from what He did and said that where He showed His disciples His deity. (cf Psalm 65:7, Job 38:11, etc.) Also think about why the storm came.

If God is out to wipe out sin using the form of a twister

You have missed the point. First of all, God was not using the wind to wipe out sin. Christ Jesus wiped out the penatly and power of sin on the cross and with His resurrection for those that trust Him and His return and final judgement WILL wipe out all sin. It won't be piecemeal by wind or rain, but totally by fire.

then I can suggest other countries to be devastated rather then the mid-west USA

The point is not that one part of the world is less evil than another. ALL of the earth is affected by the fall and ALL deserve eternal punishment. Piper's orginal article, and as it has been pointed out clearly on this thread that the storm is not a punishment to any certain people. Did you read Piper's article. We all deserve to be devastated.

Instead, the only One who was without sin, Jesus Christ, took all of our devastation upon Him --so that those who willingly trust in Him, who understand that there is nothing they can do to win God's favor and that God Himself took our place and desire to follow Him --they will be spared the final and eternal devastation. And instead of devastation in that Day, they will be clothed in His righteousness and glory.

As Piper said - the tornados are only a reminder of this somber truth- that earthly death comes to us all when we least expect it so we need to have our hearts cleansed with repentance.

133 posted on 03/09/2012 4:19:21 AM PST by lupie
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To: HarleyD
We really have invented a god after our own image.

They want a god that caters to their feelings and their accomplishments and their desires. A god that follows them. It amazes me how much scripture twisting occurs to accomplish that. They don't realize that it is all about His glory, His worthiness, and our unworthiness. Only when we realize that and give Him the glory do we really get what we crave - peace with God through Christ.

134 posted on 03/09/2012 4:27:47 AM PST by lupie
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To: lupie; guitarplayer1953
Who was Jesus rebuking when He rebuked the storm at sea? Was He rebuking God?

You seem to be saying that Jesus is someone who can rebuke God. Jesus IS God, therefore He cannot rebuke Himself.


Thus giving new insight to the homonym of your name for completely missing the point in this and your subsequent observations.

That creation is affected by the Fall does not mean that it all became sinful or wicked due to sin. It was subjected to frustration, according to Paul, by God who did so in the anticipation of it being set free with the revelation of the children of God at the time of the final assize. The point of guitarplayer1953 was to draw attention to the moronic loopiness of Piper's theology, descended from one of the most execrable ever to wear the label of Christian. Only moral and philosophical perverts like John Calvin and Zwingli could say the following:
"The devil and wicked men are so held in on every side with the hand of God, that they cannot conceive, or contrive, or execute any mischief, any farther than God himself doth not permit only, but command. Nor are they only held in fetters, but compelled also, as with a bridle, to perform obedience to those commands." (Calvin's Institutes b. 1, c. 17, s. 11.)

"...when God makes angels or men sin, he does not sin himself, because he does not break any law. For God is under no law, and therefore cannot sin." (Zwingli, Sermon on Providence, c. 5, 6.)

135 posted on 03/09/2012 4:28:58 AM PST by aruanan
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To: luckystarmom

How blessed you are to see God through your daughter! Although we aren’t Lutheran, there is a Lutheran ministry (LDS/SonRise) that helps churches start and maintain these bible studies. They are associated with Bethesaisda Lutheran Ministries. There is a group here in the midwest that works with bible teaching evangelical churches willing to have this ministry. There is a great, great need for it. Our church is a PCA church and they now have a missions team that works with PCA churches to have special needs ministries in their church.

I have to say that everyone that I have talked with that ministers to these people knows they are much more blessed and their faith strengthened by this. They are all such a living example of the faith of a child. One that we all need.


136 posted on 03/09/2012 4:38:38 AM PST by lupie
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To: lupie
They want a god that caters to their feelings and their accomplishments and their desires.

If so, it's only because, according to John Calvin, all those feelings and accomplishments and desires, even the most evil and twisted, have been planned by God since before the foundation of the world and put into practice in such a way that there is no deviation between anything that happens anywhere in creation throughout time from the beginning to the end, from the flavor of the smallest quark to the motion of the universe as a whole, from the most benign thought to the cruelest genocide, and God's own design.
137 posted on 03/09/2012 4:41:36 AM PST by aruanan
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To: HarleyD
It doesn't amaze me anymore. It's not just this board, either. Many churches now shy from the soveriegn God of the Bible. If I had a dollar for every person who told me that they dislike the Old Testament I could start my own church.

IMO it's reflective of our culture. As a people we now take a dim view of stern fathers who discipline their children. Discipline, rigor and pleasure deferred are negative concepts. Fathers-if they are even taken into consideration at all-are expected to be "mommies with facial hair." God hardly comports with our modern gelded father-concept, so we must give Him a new image. A rebranded God for our shallow, superficial generation. Huggy Jesus, if you will. Huggy Jesus would never allow anything bad to happen to anyone, yet bad things happen, ergo Huggy Jesus isn't in control. He's watching from a distance, wringing His hands and hoping it all works out OK.

Phew...off the soapbox now.

138 posted on 03/09/2012 5:51:38 AM PST by jboot
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To: Lee N. Field

Here is a brief introduction to hyper-Calvinism. Most FR Calvinists would fall under the third category under Dr. Johnson’s ranking scheme. Some FR Calvinists could even be classified in the second category.

http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/articles/hypercal.htm


139 posted on 03/09/2012 6:05:30 AM PST by SeaHawkFan
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To: lupie
then I can suggest other countries to be devastated rather then the mid-west USA

The point is not that one part of the world is less evil than another. ALL of the earth is affected by the fall and ALL deserve eternal punishment. Piper's orginal article, and as it has been pointed out clearly on this thread that the storm is not a punishment to any certain people. Did you read Piper's article. We all deserve to be devastated.

Why does anyone think that rural, smalltown Midwest America is innocent?

The upper floor of a place I used to work at had some unusual features. Word was "this used to be a whorehouse." Made sense, bathtubs in niches every 15 feet. This would date to Nineteen ought something or earlier. This is a quarter mile from "Piety Hill", where there is a church literally every single block. Hmmm.

There are persistent local rumors, over a long period of time from multiple sources, of "devil worshippers" out in the rural boonies, here in my little neck of rural smalltown America. Hmm.

Innocent?

140 posted on 03/09/2012 7:27:55 AM PST by Lee N. Field ("And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise" Gal 3:29)
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To: nuke rocketeer
Most anti-Calvinists don't have a clue about Calvinism or they wouldn't spout off ridiculous statements like yours.

Take an objective look at Calvinism, away from the influence of Arminian heresy, and you may see things differently.

141 posted on 03/09/2012 10:12:33 AM PST by P8riot (I carry a gun because I can't carry a cop.....Eagle Scout since Sep 9, 1970)
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To: P8riot; nuke rocketeer
Most anti-Calvinists don't have a clue about Calvinism or they wouldn't spout off ridiculous statements like yours.

Ha ha ha. Whistling past the graveyard.

Take an objective look at Calvinism, away from the influence of Arminian heresy, and you may see things differently.

Did you know Arminius began as a Calvinist? Do you even know what it was in Calvin's theology that he opposed? Do you know how Arminius's points against Calvinism, which were used to formulate Calvin's tulip, compared to basic Christian doctrine that existed for centuries before Luther and Calvin ever came on the scene with their reformulated Augustinism fatalism?

Calvin's theological determinism makes everything perfectly senseless. Accepting it requires that everything become something completely other than what it appears to be and turns a beautiful story into a sick and perverted horror. This is what Calvinism does:
Once upon a time, before anything was created, when God in three persons dwelt happily in and of themselves, God the Father said, "Hey, I've got a great idea. We're going to create a universe by and through you, God the Son, and I am, before you create anything at all, going to determine how every single bit of it, from start to finish, from the beginning to the end, from the least quark to the biggest bang, is going to go. We will create an entire human race from an original male and female whom I will cause to be tempted and sin and, because of that, subject the rest of the human race to untold millennia of misery and suffering and death and tell them it's their own fault, all for my greater glory because it seemed good to me, all the while promising them a means of salvation from that misery I've imposed on them as a result of their sin against me that I will have preordained.

And a really neat thing is that we will tell them that if they listen to what they are told and follow it faithfully, we will hear them and answer them and heal their land, but they won't know that in actuality they won't be able even to try unless we make a few of them do it and the vast majority we will keep in the bondage of sin and degradation and then hold them responsible for not doing what we created them to be unable to do.

And the best thing of all, God the Son, is that because the sin (that I will ordain and set into motion to the very degree and extent that is my good pleasure according to the unfathomable counsel of my will) cannot be forgiven without a sacrifice and since none of them is able or capable or even willing because I will have made them unable, incapable, and unwilling, YOU are going to have to enter the human race and grow up among those, but for the few I will have made to act to the contrary, who won't listen because I will have made them unable to hear, who won't see because I will have blinded them to the truth, and who won't ask for forgiveness for something they were hopeless to avoid doing because I will have made them incapable of doing so and then have the ever loving crap beaten out of you, scourged to within an inch of your life, before being made to carry the instrument of your torture before crowds jeering at you, because I will have made them do so, to the place where others, because of my decree before the foundations of the earth according to my own good counsel, will drive spikes through your wrists and hoist you up to hang between criminals--and the best part of all, at that moment, just as you are about to die, I'll turn my back on you!

But that's cool, because in three days, I'll raise you from the dead so that we can say that this proves you are who we already know you are without ever the necessity of our even creating a universe or a human race and then use faith in that as the ostensible means by which we confer saving grace on the humans without telling them, until John Calvin comes along, that what they think is turning to us in faith to freely receive the gift of forgiveness and salvation is, in actuality, every bit as programmed and inevitable as the majority of the human race on their way to burn and suffer eternally in the lake of fire for refusing to believe that which I will have made them unable to believe since before the foundations of the earth and all for my praise and glory. How does that sound?"

And does God the Son say, "Wait a second, you're going to create a universe with a world of conscious beings made in our image, screw them over in the most horrendous ways imaginable, hold them responsible for what you're going to compel them to do, and then, near the end of the whole shebang, make ME suffer for every sin they ever committed without their ever having had the capacity to decide otherwise, and die so that those who don't even have the capacity to make anything but a faux choice will be "saved"? And that will make the relationship that you and I and the Holy Spirit share right now better how?" or does he say, "Hey, that sounds great and we'll call that the GOOD NEWS!"

142 posted on 03/09/2012 12:11:13 PM PST by aruanan
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To: MarkBsnr

LOL!


143 posted on 03/09/2012 1:14:05 PM PST by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: MarkBsnr; jonno; aruanan

Oooohhhh....

I would simply quote Paul...

Rom 3:8 And why not do evil that good may come?—as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just.


144 posted on 03/09/2012 2:07:34 PM PST by HarleyD
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To: POWERSBOOTHEFAN

I don’t think sarcasm was in evidence.

You said that you wanted to be a meteorologist “in the WORST way” and the worst way to be one is to fall into the global warmist trap.


145 posted on 03/09/2012 3:02:56 PM PST by editor-surveyor (No Federal Sales Tax - No Way!)
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To: aruanan
And as i pointed out that fact by Jesus rebuking the storm. Pipper’s premise was that it was God's will in the twister. God can use the weather to prove a point of His grace which is what He did in the early settlers by giving them due rain at the proper time to grow a harvest. this fact marveled the Indians who would plant and have it wiped out by storms or dried up by drought.

So your observation is wrong I did see through what Pipper had to say and do not appreciate your biased remarks toward a guitar player. May I ask what your hobbies are maybe I can disparage you in some way too.

146 posted on 03/09/2012 3:32:08 PM PST by guitarplayer1953 (Grammar & spelling maybe wrong, get over it, the world will not come to an end!)
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To: HarleyD

“”What amazes me is that very few Christians on this seem to actually believe in a sovereign Lord””

Catholicism believes God is sovereign,but we understand God can ONLY be sovereign good and only will good.God would be imperfect if He were to will any evil ,thus God would be moved and in error and lack the perfection of perfect goodness.

To believe in double predestination is to limit God to time where he somehow does not know free will decisions, or even worse, to think God creates life for the purpose of hell,thus sacrificing life for the devil and being subordinate to evil

The only reason for those who think they are already saved to believe that God predestined someone for hell is to think your own personal sin means nothing. If you keep sinning the same sins and think this way than you really don’t love the sacrifice of Christ but rather love the sin more than the sacrifice of Christ

Here is some Aquinas for you to ponder upon

That God cannot will Evil

EVERY act of God is an act of virtue, since His virtue is His essence .

2. The will cannot will evil except by some error coming to be in the reason, at least in the matter of the particular choice there and then made. For as the object of the will is good, apprehended as such, the will cannot tend to evil unless evil be somehow proposed to it as good; and that cannot be without error.* But in the divine cognition there can be no error . 3. God is the sovereign good, admitting no intermixture of evil 4. Evil cannot befall the will except by its being turned away from its end. But the divine will cannot be turned away from its end, being unable to will except by willing itself . It cannot therefore will evil; and thus free will in it is naturally established in good. This is the meaning of the texts: God is faithful and without iniquity (Deut. xxxii, 4); Thine eyes are clean, O Lord, and thou canst not look upon iniquity (Hab. i, 13).


147 posted on 03/09/2012 4:39:41 PM PST by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: HarleyD

Very good, sir.

Do I detect a note of works in your post that caution that one must not do evil? Why is that? If one does not suffer consequences, then there are no consequences.

And why suffer consequences if one cannot help what happens anyway? If a drunk driver hits me while I am sitting at a red light, am I at fault?


148 posted on 03/09/2012 5:33:36 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: editor-surveyor

I really want to be a Meteorologist. Is that better?

I figured you’d know what “in the worst way” meant.


149 posted on 03/09/2012 7:49:06 PM PST by POWERSBOOTHEFAN (I love you,Pumpkin. You are the best cat in the world. You're my Sweet Pea.)
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To: stfassisi
God would be imperfect if He were to will any evil ,thus God would be moved and in error and lack the perfection of perfect goodness.

I would agree. But what is lacking is exactly who wills the evil that does exist. Since we both agree that God does NOT will any evil, then the only conclusion is that WE will the evil; continuously, freely and completely. This is what the scriptures teaches.

Gen 6:5 The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Jhn 2:24-25 But Jesus on his part did not entrust himself to them, because he knew all people and needed no one to bear witness about man, for he himself knew what was in man.

What we see by the comments from many of the Christians on this board is that 1) Satan does it, or 2) it just happens. Aquinas also had a very difficult time explaining the nature of evil except to say that people have the potency for corruption. The real fact of the matter that we don't wish to examine is that we (Christians and non-Christians) continuously harden our hearts against the will of God and run after those things that are unholy.

The question shouldn't be why do bad things happen to good people. Rather the question should be why do good things happen to bad people.

As we see from Amos, God in His love, mercy and grace continues to bring us back to Him through various events either good or bad in our terms. Yet when something happens that is catastrophic to our lives, we question it with "Why me?" or "How could God do this?" We really justify ourselves or blame God, when actually God is trying to draw us to Him. If one doubt this all they have to do is look at the churches filling up after such an event. While everything is good, the churches remain empty.

For Christians we fail to understand that all things work together for our good with those who love the Lord and are called according to His purpose. Even destructive tornados.

150 posted on 03/10/2012 5:20:08 AM PST by HarleyD
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