The "Inconvenient Tale" of the Original King James Bible

Handsonapologetics ^ | Gary Michuta

[Natural Law]

"Thank you for a terrific Bible lesson; just one more example the RCC makes things up and calls it Christianity when it is closer to paganism than true belief."

It bears repeating:

In her day Jael was most blessed for her charity and compassion, but that was not a prophecy that she would remain the most blessed forever. Further, Jael was never acknowledged by an Angel as "kecharitomene". Kecharitōmĕnē translates as the perfect passive participle of charitŏō (“Full of Grace”). It denotes one who has been and still is the object of divine benevolence, one who has been favored and continues to be favored by God, one who has been granted supernatural grace and remains in this state. Kecharitomene denotes continuance of a completed action

[metmom]

Excellent.....

[CynicalBear]

Kecharitōmĕnē doesn’t mean nearly what the RCC tries to inject into it. Anyone can use a Greek Lexicon and find that Mary was given grace by God but not to the extent of veneration that Catholics want to portray.

[Natural Law]

"Anyone can use a Greek Lexicon and find that Mary was given grace by God but not to the extent of veneration that Catholics want to portray."

I would be willing to bet, that using your Greek Lexicon, that you wouldn't be able to order lunch or find the rest room in first century Alexandria or Athens, let alone use it to comprehend the mysteries of the universe.

[CynicalBear]

But I can find out now the RCC has distorted scripture.

[MarkBsnr]

"Anyone can use a Greek Lexicon and find that Mary was given grace by God but not to the extent of veneration that Catholics want to portray."

I would be willing to bet, that using your Greek Lexicon, that you wouldn't be able to order lunch or find the rest room in first century Alexandria or Athens, let alone use it to comprehend the mysteries of the universe.

Come on, N-L. Everyone knows that the KJV is the real Bible. Any Greek is subservient to the real English meaning. Just like Jesus and the Apostles (superseded by Paul) taught from.

And any antiCatholic prejudice is preferred over the reality of Christianity.

[MarkBsnr]

Thank you for a terrific Bible lesson; just one more example the RCC makes things up and calls it Christianity when it is closer to paganism than true belief.

Welcome back, Dr. E. It is with thanks that I bathe in your dulcet tones once again.

[Natural Law]

"But I can find out now the RCC has distorted scripture."

I would like you to explain the contradiction between the assertion that Scripture alone, being sufficiently self interpreting so as to negate the need of a teaching authority and your need of a Greek Lexicon to fumble around with the intended meaning of Blessed.

[CynicalBear]

You just don’t get it do you? Learn what Sola Scriptura means then maybe we can have a conversation. I’m not talking Solo Scriptura either. Learn the difference.

[Natural Law]

"Learn what Sola Scriptura means then maybe we can have a conversation."

I do know what Sola Scriptura is and how it differs from "solo" scriptura. I am just struggling with a need to cite authoritative sources like lexicons and web pages to prove the Magisterium is wrong and unnecessary.

[editor-surveyor]

>> “ I am just struggling with a need to cite authoritative sources like lexicons and web pages to prove the Magisterium is wrong and unnecessary.” <<

.
No website necessary; the Bible says so! Christ condemned the practices of those Nicolaitans in the letters to the churches.

[boatbums]

I'm still waiting for someone to present a reconciliation of Millennialism's 1,000 year kingdom with the "kingdom shall have no end" declaration in Luke 1:33 and as espoused in the Nicene Creed.

It's likely you will wait forever since this HAS been presented numerous times and, apparently, you have either missed it or refused to accept it. Hmmm....which one???

But, if you really HAVE missed it, then let me direct you to Holy Scripture (Yes, it IS found there). Turn to Revelation 20. It starts out speaking about Satan being bound for a thousand years in the "bottomless pit". The Beast and the False Prophet had been cast into the "Lake of Fire" just prior to then when Jesus came back to Earth to defeat those who had gathered to make war against God's people and the end of the Great Tribulation (Rev. 19). In Rev. 20:1-3, we see:

And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

After that is done, then those who came out of the Great Tribulation were judged by... WHO? Why:

I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge.

Well, who do we know who Jesus told would judge the twelve tribes of Israel? Ring a bell??? Those who were judged by the Apostles were those who were of Israel, whom the 144,000 Jewish, virgin, young men anointed of God to preach the Gospel of the Messiah Jesus Christ, and who had received and believed on him. Verses 4-6 say:

And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

So, we know that Christ DOES return to earth and reigns for 1000 years. But AFTER this millennium, something else happens. Those who survived the tribulation and went into the millennium continued to have children, and THOSE children still had the responsibility to also receive Jesus as their Savior as well as Lord and King. As hard as it is to imagine, some don't - good old human nature, I guess! Here they have Christ - the perfect and righteous King of Kings and Lord of Lords ruling in justice and righteousness, they never want for anything, but they STILL rebel against him. In verses 7-10, we learn that Satan is "loosed" for a short while out of the Bottomless Pit/The Abyss and what does he do immediately?

When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

So, all those people who were born and rejected Jesus' rule were gathered by Satan to make one final attack against him. But it was over before they knew what hit them. Fire came down and POOF! they were defeated and they along with Satan were cast into the final HELL where for all ETERNITY they will suffer. Verses 11-15 speaks of that:

Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

That parable that you guys are so fond of tossing out about the "sheep and goats" judgment? Well, here it is. It actually occurs after the millennium.

Finally, you asked for an explanation of the "kingdom will have no end" part, we see that not only during Christ's spiritual rule in Heaven but also his 1000 year rule on earth called the Millennium, but what happens next is the kicker. Read Revelation 21. Verses 1-5 speak of a completely NEW heaven and earth where Christ WILL rule and reign and His Kingdom has NO end:

Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.” He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!”

You can read the rest of chapter 21 of Revelation as it speaks about the New Jerusalem where God fulfills his promise to Israel. Its description is awe-inspiring and at the end of this chapter we learn:

I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

I hope you understand that this is by no means "modern progression" nor "the heterodoxy of Dispensationalism" but the actual truth from God revealed to the Apostle John and meant for us all. This is in NO way something new or recently "hatched" doctrine created to make the Catholic Church look bad, but was understood AND expounded upon by many of the early church "Fathers". This site http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00CAjU quotes many of them if you care to read it. Now, I realize that, this goes against some of what your "Magesterium" has decided everyone should believe, but you should know what the Bible says as well as what was believed in the early church as they were taught by the Apostles. You will have to decide who you will believe.

[Natural Law]

"But, if you really HAVE missed it, then let me direct you to Holy Scripture..."

I do appreciate the patient and thorough explanation of your views. It was a good read and well presented. That said, I have to say that I don't agree with it because I believe in the hierarchy of the revealed word in which the Gospels are the pinnacle and all other Scripture is supportive. I cannot begin with Revelations, I have to begin with the Gospels and then see how Revelations reflects them. Peace and Blessings

[boatbums]

I do appreciate the patient and thorough explanation of your views. It was a good read and well presented. That said, I have to say that I don't agree with it because I believe in the hierarchy of the revealed word in which the Gospels are the pinnacle and all other Scripture is supportive. I cannot begin with Revelations, I have to begin with the Gospels and then see how Revelations reflects them. Peace and Blessings

Thank you for your gracious reply. I am curious about why you believe that the "hierarchy of the revealed word in which the Gospels are the pinnacle and all other Scripture is supportive" precludes you from considering the truths spoken of in the book of Revelation. If someone could show you that Jesus spoke of many things that John saw when he wrote Revelation - under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit - and that it DOES support Jesus' words, would you be more amenable to considering it? Do you accept that the epistles were continuing revelation from Jesus after he ascended to Heaven and that they taught additional truths to believers?

[MarkBsnr]

And a bunch of people who follow him like he was a god, instead of being the fantastic servant of the Church that he actually was. You think that I have a problem with Paul? Nope. I somewhat identify with him.

Masterful conclusion...

Our opponents' stunned silence is very reassuring.

[MarkBsnr]

. No website necessary; the Bible says so! Christ condemned the practices of those Nicolaitans in the letters to the churches.

Unfortunately, my Bible is missing the epistles that Jesus wrote to the churches. Oddly enough, my Bible only has Jesus writing in the sand. What version are you using? A Niccolo (sic) version?

[CynicalBear]

You just don’t get it do you? Learn what Sola Scriptura means then maybe we can have a conversation. I’m not talking Solo Scriptura either. Learn the difference.

[CynicalBear]

How are we supposed to believe that you understand the difference when you keep asking questions that indicate that you don’t understand the difference? You ask why we would try to understand what words in scripture mean. Really? You have never read Paul’s commendation of the Bereans? Even Paul said to check with scripture to see if what he taught was correct yet you expect us to take the word of some guy in Rome? The guys in Rome are teaching stuff that ain’t in scripture or contradict scripture.

[Natural Law]

"How are we supposed to believe that you understand the difference when you keep asking questions that indicate that you don’t understand the difference?"

I am not arguing the merits of Sola Scriptura, although I would be glad to, I am discussing why and how Jesus instituted a teaching authority within the Church and how even those who reject the need for the Magisterium rely on cheap and unreliable substitutes.

"You have never read Paul’s commendation of the Bereans?"

Of course I have. St. Paul preached the Word on the authority of Jesus, not on his own authority and relied on Jesus' life and ministry being prophesied over 450 times in the existing Scripture available to the Jews of Berea, the Old Testament. If the Gospel Scripture was indeed available throughout the Gentile world at the time of St. Paul's ministry then he would have been no more than the teaching authority.

[Natural Law]

"I am curious about why you believe that the "hierarchy of the revealed word in which the Gospels are the pinnacle and all other Scripture is supportive" precludes you from considering the truths spoken of in the book of Revelation."

That is a valid question, and one I have asked myself on a number of occasions. My answer has two components;

1) Scripture cannot contradict Scripture. St. Augustine tells us that every word in Scripture has a purpose and that they embody the Word of God like every crumb of the Eucharist. When I see apparent contradictions I must have a way to resolve them. I never think that things that do not make sense to me are wrong, I always think that I have to study, pray and work to resolve the deficiency in me.

I believe that there has been an evolution of revelation, that God has revealed Himself to us in degrees and stages and that this reached its apex in the incarnation of Jesus Christ. All other revelation beyond the Gospel Scripture is only to help us to understand and accept the Gospels. So I always begin with the Gospels and see all other Scripture, New and Old Testaments in the context of supporting them.

2) I don't understand Revelation and its symbolism nearly enough to have wrapped my head completely around what St. John is trying to say. If you read the discussions surrounding the inclusion of Revelations in the Canon you will find that I am not alone.