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Catholics in Italy Told Ashes of Dead Cannot be Scattered
Catholic News Agency ^ | 3/30/12 | David Kerr

Posted on 04/03/2012 11:25:20 AM PDT by marshmallow

Rome, Italy, Mar 30, 2012 / 01:44 pm (CNA/EWTN News).- The Catholic Church in Italy has issued new guidelines that rule out scattering the cremated remains of a person or the keeping them in an urn at home.

“Cremation is considered as concluded when the urn is deposited in the cemetery,” says the appendix to the new edition of Funeral Rites issued by Italian Episcopal Conference.

“The practice of spreading ashes in the wild or keeping them in places other than the cemetery,” it adds, “raises many concerns about its full consistency with the Christian faith, especially when they imply pantheistic or naturalist conceptions.”

The new book of Funeral Rites was published earlier this month and will come into force in parishes across Italy on Nov. 2, All Souls Day.

Official statistics suggest that around 10 percent of Italians who die are cremated. Since 2001 the Italian government has permitted ashes to be kept at homes in urns or to be scattered on land or sea.

In the lead-up to the new Funeral Rites being produced this month, there was some media speculation in Italy that the Church would also accept these practices under certain circumstances.

Traditionally, the Catholic Church permitted cremation only when grave public necessity required the rapid removal of bodies, such as in time of plague or natural disaster.

The concern of the Church was that the rejection of Christian burial could be viewed as a rejection of Christian belief in the resurrection of the body and immortality of the soul. Indeed, the use of cremation was championed from the 18th century Enlightenment onwards by many anti-Catholic movements such as the Freemasons.

(Excerpt) Read more at catholicnewsagency.com ...


TOPICS: Catholic; Theology
KEYWORDS: burial; catholic; cremation; italy; resurrection

1 posted on 04/03/2012 11:25:26 AM PDT by marshmallow
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To: marshmallow

Alternate headline: Church reiterates existing rules (that exist to ensure our actions do not undermine age-old doctrine about salvation and eternal life).


2 posted on 04/03/2012 11:37:16 AM PDT by Notwithstanding (If you are free, thank a lawyer and a vet.)
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To: marshmallow

The way I figure it, if God is omnipotent, it shouldn’t be a problem for him to resurrect a body that has been cremated and scattered.
Most bodies end up being completely destroyed, even the bones, when left long enough. In certain types of soil, this process may only take a few years.
When they tried to dig up Cardinal Newman, all they found was a coffin plate and a few other inorganic materials...


3 posted on 04/03/2012 11:41:40 AM PDT by sinsofsolarempirefan
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To: marshmallow

The same rule applies in my diocese. Cremation is OK, but no scattering. Remains go into a blessed grave.


4 posted on 04/03/2012 11:44:48 AM PDT by forgotten man (forgotten man)
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To: Notwithstanding
Hopefully, there were no Catholics in the World Trade Centers on 9/11..../s

Please think to the logical conclusion before you stop thinking and begin responding. You are limiting God and His work of resurrection if you believe your "age-old doctrine".

5 posted on 04/03/2012 11:53:24 AM PDT by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing are for an eternity..)
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To: smvoice
Please think

Yes ... please do.

Before ASSuming that people believe things that they don't ... before launching on ASSinine lectures that are completely irrelevant ... before imputing false motives to other people or pretending to read their minds ...

One would be well advised to ASK an honest question or two ... and refrain from ASSuming that the answer given is deceptive.

Jus' sayin' ...

6 posted on 04/03/2012 12:02:23 PM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: smvoice
There is, of course, another intelligent option ...

One might (gasp!) read the article. I realize that some people are incapable of reading ... but most of them are also incapable of typing on a computer based discussion forum.

7 posted on 04/03/2012 12:05:08 PM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: smvoice; sinsofsolarempirefan
From the article: '“Cremation does not affect the soul nor prevent God's omnipotence from restoring the body,” it [a 1963 Holy Office document “Piam et constantem”] stated, adding that “neither, then, does it in itself include an objective denial of the dogmas mentioned.” [...] The 1992 Catechism of the Catholic Church confirms this position. “The Church permits cremation, provided that it does not demonstrate a denial of faith in the resurrection of the body.”'
8 posted on 04/03/2012 12:15:11 PM PDT by JustSayNoToNannies (A free society's default policy: it's none of government's business.)
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To: marshmallow

“..raises many concerns about its full consistency with the Christian faith, especially when they imply pantheistic or naturalist conceptions..”

Sounds like the point is if you scatter ashes or keep them on the mantle, are you acting like a christian or something else?

E.g. If you want your ashes scattered in your hometown because you want to “return home”, such a belief isn’t quite consistent w/believing in the resurection, where your physical body is irrelevant.

Same goes for scattering in a park or something if you like the idea of being “with nature”. In that case, are you acting like a christian - or a druid?

Also, keeping your parents permanently on the mantle may be a bit akin to ancestor worship, which is not a christian tenet.

So I guess it sounds odd to non-catholics, but burying ashes does seem to be a bit more consistent with the faith.


9 posted on 04/03/2012 12:32:29 PM PDT by fruser1
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To: marshmallow

**Catholics in Italy Told Ashes of Dead Cannot be Scattered**

This is correct. Ashes must be buried.


10 posted on 04/03/2012 3:08:53 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: marshmallow
I saw a PBS program once on Cremation and How it is Done. Just Terrible. When the body is burned the bones remain.

What they do with the bones is outrageous. I never saw this expose' on this subject again. I think the cremation industry bought it out of circulation.

They have no respect for the Body. Everyone thinks it is a nice clean burn then ashes. It is a lie from what I saw in this 90 minute program. This was the nineties on tv in N. Y. PBS.

Just remember you handing over your body to bunch of strangers. You can not tell if that is Aunt May's ashes or a total strangers, besides other things in the ashes. How about what they do to the bones in a dirty shop to grind. Just sick. At least what I saw it was about the whole industry. sick.

11 posted on 04/03/2012 3:45:58 PM PDT by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass , Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: smvoice

Your #5 makes no sense.

The Italian bishops and Catholic doctrine do not prohibit one from being a victim of muslim terrorists and being incinerated with ashes being strewn all over.

Cremation is not prohibited. Intentionally scattering ashes afterwards is what is prohibited.

The doctrine does NOT limit God, but rather the doctrine calls us not to deliberately scatter what God has promised to make whole and new, and calls us not to sentimentally unite a person with his favorite earthly park or sea by scattering him there. Those acts fly in the face of the promises God has made about what awaits us after death.


12 posted on 04/03/2012 3:58:34 PM PDT by Notwithstanding (If you are free, thank a lawyer and a vet.)
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To: marshmallow
Look at this video and this is not everything! No respect if you ask me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHBaCZ3slis

13 posted on 04/03/2012 4:00:20 PM PDT by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass , Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: All; johngrace

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHBaCZ3slis


14 posted on 04/03/2012 4:02:05 PM PDT by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass , Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: johngrace
Everyone thinks it is a nice clean burn then ashes. It is a lie from what I saw in this 90 minute program. This was the nineties on tv in N. Y. PBS.

Really? PBS? Not NPR or Mother Jones? /sarcasm

Just remember you handing over your body to bunch of strangers. You can not tell if that is Aunt May's ashes or a total strangers, besides other things in the ashes. How about what they do to the bones in a dirty shop to grind. Just sick. At least what I saw it was about the whole industry. sick.

And you are not handing over Aunt May over to strangers at the funeral home? Do you have any idea what happens during an embalming? Do you have any idea what eventually happens to the human body even after embalming?

The funeral/mortuary industry sells people the false and very expensive idea that if you purchase the upgraded coffin and the most expensive vault that the recently dead and now properly embalmed Aunt May will rest eternally looking just as good as she did in life or at least as good as she did during the viewing, after her bodily fluids are sucked out and replaced with toxic chemicals, her lips pumped with wax to keep them looking so plump and life like, her mouth sutured or wired shut, eye cups or cotton balls placed under her eye lids so she doesn’t have that, well sunken dead eye look. She’s also been washed down with strong disinfectants (not really a bad idea) but also sometime powders are or chemicals along the likes of Fabreeze to keep her already rotting corpse from smelling up the funeral parlor and freaking out the mourners.

I’m not trying to be harsh, but that is the reality. Embalming is at best only temporarily. Regardless of whether embalming is performed, the type of burial or entombment, and the materials used – such as wood or metal caskets and vaults – Aunt May will eventually decompose. Eventually she will be nothing but bones and dust and the sad rotted and tattered fragments of that nice flowered she loved so much.

Look at this video and this is not everything! No respect if you ask me.

I saw nothing offensive in that.

Is this any less offensive, clinical, industrial, commercial than this?

Embalming Process

Or this:

Embalming Lab at the University of Minnesota

15 posted on 04/03/2012 4:50:27 PM PDT by MD Expat in PA
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To: Notwithstanding

Why, according to your church, can ashes be unintenionally scattered, but not intentionally scattered? I am interested in knowing why your church allows for one but not the other. And how they both apply to “the facts fly in the face of the promises God has made us about what awaits us after death”? What are those promises, according to the Catholic Church? Thank you for your reply.


16 posted on 04/03/2012 4:58:54 PM PDT by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing are for an eternity..)
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To: smvoice

You wrote:

“Why, according to your church, can ashes be unintenionally scattered, but not intentionally scattered?”

Why do you deliberately skew this? The Church does not say “ashes [can] be unintenionally scattered, but not intentionally scattered”. The Church simply recognizes the obvious - fires (caused by terrorists or any other cause) will consume bodies and scatter their ashes. The Church believes human remains are best treated with respect. Scattering a body is not respectful. Get it yet?

“I am interested in knowing why your church allows for one but not the other.”

I am interested in knowing how on earth you can use the word “allow” in that sentence. What “allow”? The Church did not “allow” 9/11. Nineteen scumbag Muslim terrorists made it happen.


17 posted on 04/03/2012 5:31:08 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: MD Expat in PA

To each his own. So you work for this industry. LOL!!


18 posted on 04/03/2012 5:34:59 PM PDT by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass , Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: vladimir998
I was responding to post 12.

But more importantly, I am interested in knowing how on earth you can deduce from my post that I think the Church "allowed" 9/11. Where in the name of pete did THAT come from? I was speaking of people who were blown to pieces, or burn to ashes and scattered in the wind in the Twin Towers. Or ANYWHERE, for that matter. How you could turn that into "The Church did not allow 9/11" is beyond my scope of DUH responses. Seriously.

19 posted on 04/03/2012 6:17:05 PM PDT by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing are for an eternity..)
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To: smvoice

You wrote:

“I am interested in knowing why your church allows for one but not the other.”

And earlier, “Hopefully, there were no Catholics in the World Trade Centers on 9/11..../s”

You wrote it. You own it. Wear it with the usual anti-Catholic vainglory.


20 posted on 04/03/2012 6:32:24 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: vladimir998

I’m so sorry you don’t get it. What I was commenting on was the FACT that I did not realize the Catholic Church allowed for cremation. Whether by choice or by a horrible accident, like the WTC, it was the idea that the RCC EVER condones cremation that surprised me. I just did not know that. Please stop with your “usual anti-Catholic vainglory.” It most certainly applies NOWHERE, as usual.


21 posted on 04/03/2012 6:50:09 PM PDT by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing are for an eternity..)
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To: marshmallow; lilycicero; MaryLou1; glock rocks; JPG; Monkey Face; RIghtwardHo; pieces of time; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of general interest.


22 posted on 04/03/2012 6:55:46 PM PDT by narses
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To: smvoice; Celtic Cross

No, I was right: anti-Catholic vainglory. And why would it surprise you that you didn’t know something about the Catholic faith? That happens pretty regularly. Celtic Cross called you out on that on Jan. 18th, for instance. That too all of two seconds on google to spot. It’s just that “usual”.


23 posted on 04/03/2012 7:02:31 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: vladimir998

Good work.

Snotty bigots don’t make very good “innocent inquirers”.


24 posted on 04/03/2012 7:21:58 PM PDT by Notwithstanding (If you are free, thank a lawyer and a vet.)
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To: Notwithstanding

The body is sacred, it shouldn’t be tossed to the wind.
God thinks more us than we do ourselves.


25 posted on 04/03/2012 7:29:51 PM PDT by stpio
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To: johngrace

Brother, I saw that program too. Like many good programs shown on PBS it was made as a joint venture with the BBC, so the BBC archives might have it still.
It was an expose on shady practice by crematoriums. One common way they save money is to run the furnace at too low a temperature leaving the bones more or less intact. At recommended tempteratures, some larger bones may appear intact, but they crumble to dust at a touch.

I have never really seen the problem with cremation. It is just the speeding up of the natural process that occurs to all dead meat, and what happens to my body when I am no longer using it is fairly irrelevent to me. Once the soul is gone, my body is just a chunk of rotting meat.

Treat it with respect for my family’s sake, sure, but not for my sake. I have been promised a replacement body at the resurrection. We all have.


26 posted on 04/04/2012 2:49:18 AM PDT by EnglishCon (Gingrich/Santorum 2012.)
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To: vladimir998; Notwithstanding

I will never know “something about the Catholic faith” as long as the “answers” I get are addressed to “Snotty bigots”. Once again, they are called the BEatidues, NOT the ATTITUDES. So, I’m forced to learn about Catholicsm from those less “informed” than you. Maybe even “poorly cathechised” former catholics. Who may or may not know about cremation and what the church teaches about it. Or “relics” that are buried beneath altars. Are there bones of “saints” buried beneath altars, or vials of the “tears of Mary”, or other relics of veneration? And BTW, shouldn’t that “bone” that belonged to a certain saint be joined with his other bones? Why would the Catholic Church condoned taking one bone from a person and burying it at an altar, thus leaving him incomplete? For their Catholic vainglory, perhaps?


27 posted on 04/04/2012 8:13:27 AM PDT by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing are for an eternity..)
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To: marshmallow

-—especially when they imply pantheistic or naturalist conceptions.”-—

Understandable with the spread of New Age beliefs and practices.

This is a prudential, pastoral position, subject to change, since the practice is not intrinsically evil.

I believe the original prohibition dates back to the 11th century, and the spread of gnostic sects which denigrated the body, regarding it as a hindrance to spirit.


28 posted on 04/04/2012 8:28:07 AM PDT by St_Thomas_Aquinas (Viva Christo Rey!)
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To: EnglishCon
Dear Brother -Well, that might be so in the first part of your comment. But your remark about your body.

"Once the soul is gone, my body is just a chunk of rotting meat"

You know not what you say. Just look at how I think it was Jacobs body was taken to the promised land and levitical law respects the body.

Also how Christ too was carefully attended. It's in the bible also in Christian tradition as we know where some of the apostles and believers burial places are know. Also look at the respect we have with our bodies at the cemeteries are loved ones through out the generations are buried. In my humble opinion.

29 posted on 04/04/2012 10:56:57 AM PDT by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass , Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: smvoice

You wrote:

“I will never know “something about the Catholic faith” as long as the “answers” I get are addressed to “Snotty bigots”.”

If they are addressing you that way, then maybe you should change your actions that lead to that. Ever think of that?

“Once again, they are called the BEatidues, NOT the ATTITUDES.”

So, when you make a sarcastic remark about 9/11 is that Beatitude or Attitude? You tell me.

“So, I’m forced to learn about Catholicsm from those less “informed” than you.”

No, you’re not. You could read the Catechism. Are you helpless? Illiterate? You can’t send an email to Catholic Answers?

“Maybe even “poorly cathechised” former catholics. Who may or may not know about cremation and what the church teaches about it. Or “relics” that are buried beneath altars. Are there bones of “saints” buried beneath altars, or vials of the “tears of Mary”, or other relics of veneration? And BTW, shouldn’t that “bone” that belonged to a certain saint be joined with his other bones?”

Nope. It shouldn’t.

“Why would the Catholic Church condoned taking one bone from a person and burying it at an altar, thus leaving him incomplete?”

He’ll be incomplete until the resurrection. He’s in Heaven without a body so having one of his bones in a relic stone in an altar does nothing to change that situation. You did realize that obvious fact, right? I mean, that’s what people with common sense and a basic understanding of salvation history would see.

“For their Catholic vainglory, perhaps?”

The vainglory is all yours. And again, if someone calls you names, maybe you should not have acted in a way to be called those names.


30 posted on 04/04/2012 3:17:08 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: vladimir998
No, actually the burying of someone's bone beneath an altar in a "relic box" becomes an important part of the complete picture of deceit and paganism that is the Catholic Church. "Common sense" and "a basic understanding of salvation history would see"???? lol! Yes, it takes a great deal of "common sense" to "see" that the thigh bone of a Catholic saint is to be venerated while on that long Catholic Road to "salvation". Please, show me more of your "common sense" of your church so I may become more "informed." It takes a particularly brilliant mind to understand that the vial of Mary's tears buried beneath the altar of St. Michael the Archangel Church of the Faithful, is indeed the real thing. After all, the magisterium approved it and three witnesses came forward to claim healing when gazing upon the tears. And of course, Michael the Archangel protects it. With enough prayer to him.

You have shown me quite well the ATTITUDES. Thank you. And the "brilliant common sense" that the RCC bases her doctrines and beliefs on. You are a wonderful witness for the catholic faith. Believe me.

31 posted on 04/04/2012 3:45:38 PM PDT by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing are for an eternity..)
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To: smvoice

You wrote:

“No, actually the burying of someone’s bone beneath an altar in a “relic box” becomes an important part of the complete picture of deceit and paganism that is the Catholic Church.”

That completely phony and baseless accusation of “deceit and paganism that is the Catholic Church” is EXACTLY the sort of thing that gets you correctly labeled by Catholic posters here.

“”Common sense” and “a basic understanding of salvation history would see”???? lol! Yes, it takes a great deal of “common sense” to “see” that the thigh bone of a Catholic saint is to be venerated while on that long Catholic Road to “salvation”. Please, show me more of your “common sense” of your church so I may become more “informed.””

The common sense would be that salvation history dictates the general resurrection has not happened. Do you agree or disagree? If you agree, then those who die are incomplete anyway so a relic is not an issue in terms of “completeness” or however you referred to it.

“It takes a particularly brilliant mind to understand that the vial of Mary’s tears buried beneath the altar of St. Michael the Archangel Church of the Faithful, is indeed the real thing.”

Are tears bones? No. So it doesn’t work for your complaint anyway. Someone can be complete even if his tears are not with the rest of his body. Also, the fact that there were and are frauds perpetrated by unscrupulous men doesn’t change that even the Bible lauds relics as used by God.

“After all, the magisterium approved it and three witnesses came forward to claim healing when gazing upon the tears. And of course, Michael the Archangel protects it. With enough prayer to him.”

And again, none of that works with your earlier claim, so of course you shifted to something else. And it still doesn’t work. God used relics. The Bible makes that clear. Whether or not you believe they can be used is, therefore, irrelevant.

“You have shown me quite well the ATTITUDES. Thank you. And the “brilliant common sense” that the RCC bases her doctrines and beliefs on. You are a wonderful witness for the catholic faith. Believe me.”

The Catholic Faith - which you clearly hate - will long out live you. If you choose to attack it, that is your choice and you will have to explain your actions later, fine. But the insincerity and intellectual dishonesty used by anti-Catholics so frequently is not an aid to anyone, least of all, them. Again, you were correctly labeled.


32 posted on 04/04/2012 4:33:06 PM PDT by vladimir998
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