Graven Images: Altering the Commandments?

CNA ^ | A Catholic Response, Inc.

[GonzoII]

Now if God simply forbids the making of graven images, then there are problems elsewhere in the Bible. First, in Exodus 25:18-21, God commands Moses to make two statues of angels (cherubim) for the top of the Ark of the Covenant. Later in Numbers 21:8-9, God commands Moses to make a bronze serpent, so that the people who were bitten by snakes could look upon it and be healed.

[Quix]

imho . . .

The evidence is abundantly clear that there are at least 2 points of hideous nonsense in the article:

1. Ellen G White is wholesale wrong about the Mark of the Beast. The best candidate at this point is the ID chip implant which . . . per the design of the elite controllers . . . will literally fulfill the prophecy—without which, citizens will be unable to buy or sell.

2. The Roman Catholic Magisterical DID alter the Written Word of God’s 10 commandments about graven images

to suit their own power mongering goals and methods.

Facts are facts and rants on either side of the facts don’t tend to alter the facts.

[Lx]

I find it hard to believe that I agree with you.

The Ten Commandments are not to be taken lightly nor edited. God’s proscription that nothing should be added or taken away from the Bible still stands and it’s a strong one.

And lest anyone forget, the Ten Commandments are but a start; I forget the actual number but God’s total commandments number over 600.

[BipolarBob]

1. Ellen G White is wholesale wrong about the Mark of the Beast. The best candidate at this point is the ID chip implant which . . . per the design of the elite controllers . . . will literally fulfill the prophecy—without which, citizens will be unable to buy or sell.

I'll defer until more evidence shows just what the "mark" is. It may prove to be ObamaCare® if that is a requirement.

2. The Roman Catholic Magisterical DID alter the Written Word of God’s 10 commandments about graven images to suit their own power mongering goals and methods. Facts are facts and rants on either side of the facts don’t tend to alter the facts. Agreed.

[raygunfan]

this is the best you anti catholics can do? simply declare the catholic church did it, and provide nothing to substantiate it or bring up facts to refute the actual article itself?

lame.

[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

****According to this booklet, one “mark of the beast” is the alteration of God’s Commandments.****

The SDA used to claim that “the mark of the beast” was worshiping on Sunday. They “proved” it by one of the most convoluted twisting of scriptures I have ever seen.

[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

***The Church allows for the veneration of images as long as the honor is directed towards Christ and His saints.***

The line between veneration of what a statue represents, and worship of the statue is a very thin line. About 45 years ago a bishop in Spain stopped the veneration of a solid gold statue of Mary as he concluded the people had crossed that line and were then worshiping the statue.

[Iscool]

The Church does NOT compel her members to kneel or pray before images. No one is allowed by the Church to pray to images since they have no ears to hear or power to help us. The Church allows for the veneration of images as long as the honor is directed towards Christ and His saints.

Completely untrue...We watch your popes kneel and pray to statues far too often on tv...

That may be an inconvenient truth for you guys but live with it...You're not fooling anyone but yourselves...

And this contradicts every Catholic I have ever spoken to...Mary and the saints DO hear you and you even post bogus reference scripture out of Revelation to prove it...

Now one must ask the question: "Does God forbid the making of statues, or does He condemn the worship of statues?" If God condemns the divine worship of statues, then the Catholic division scheme is justified since these images would be "other gods before" Him. A separate Commandment based on Deut. 5:8-10 would be redundant.

And one must answer that those who worship the statues are not necessarily the ones who made the statues...

You are not to make a statue of Mary in a bath tub for your front yard...And you are not to bow and pray to a statue of Mary, anywhere...

Now if God simply forbids the making of graven images, then there are problems elsewhere in the Bible. First, in Exodus 25:18-21, God commands Moses to make two statues of angels (cherubim) for the top of the Ark of the Covenant. Later in Numbers 21:8-9, God commands Moses to make a bronze serpent, so that the people who were bitten by snakes could look upon it and be healed.

Wrong again...When God says to do something for him, you do it...When he says don't do it for you, you don't do it...You guys can thumb your noses at God and tell him that if he can tell you to do it for him, you can decide for yourselves to do it for you...But I certainly would advise against it...

The Church allows for the veneration of the saints and their images as long as it remains honor proper for men.Really??? Do men answer prayers for you and perform miracles??? And then on the other side of your mouths you claim that this veneration to Mary is 'special' veneration apart from those of your other 'special' veneration for those your religion has claimed are special saints who are apart from the normal Catholic layman...

At least for Mary, our honor to her is in imitation of Jesus, her Son

How pitiful...Jesus never bowed to or insinuated or intimated that his mother was the Queen of Heaven...He never even called her Mother...He called her woman...

it would be interesting to know what the author of the booklet thought of Jesus Christ when He reduced God's Commandments to the Two Great Commandments in Matt. 22:36-40.Jesus did not reduce the Commandments...He gave two commandments which encompasses and fulfills ALL of the Commandments...

If you violate ANY of those Commandments, you violate the two commandments that Jesus gave...

[BipolarBob]

The SDA used to claim that “the mark of the beast” was worshiping on Sunday.

What day did God rest after Creation? What day did Moses keep? What day did Jesus and the disciples keep? Which of Gods commandments starts with the words "Remember" to indicate people would either forget or it would be changed? I doubt Sunday keeping is the Mark but the forced actions to worship on a particular day or way or to a particular deity could very easily be the Mark.

[onedoug]

The worship of money, the “sacrament” of abortion, a college “education”, the HOPE of the king....

[GonzoII]

"About 45 years ago a bishop in Spain stopped the veneration of a solid gold statue of Mary as he concluded the people had crossed that line and were then worshiping the statue."

Or maybe showing excessive and immature public piety which can be scandalous to the weak.

[Razzz42]

I don’t know why people insist on confusing the New testament with the Old testament. Jews might be following the Old testament to play it safe. In the end, your sins now can be forgiven.

[Salvation]

Let me add to your list:
**The worship of money, the “sacrament” of abortion, a college “education”, the HOPE of the king....**

The biggest house, the newest car, the highest paying job, addictions to alcohol, drugs, pron — these also become gods to people.

[BipolarBob]

The biggest house, the newest car, the highest paying job, addictions to alcohol, drugs, pron — these also become gods to people.

Why did you include pron? People need pron. It is vital to a persons . . . wait a minute, what is pron?

[johngrace]

What it really comes down to in an essence of thought. This protest declares God can make a law but not obey it. Just amazing.

He is above even his own laws. Sorry that does not make sense. I do not care whatever theology "words" you come up with in a discussion. I have read this old hat argument. God is using this as a visual aid for believers in these scriptures. Even God knew about " A picture/image speaks a thousand words. Also in any language too. When people from other languages see it they can talk in the own language about it. This is one of many reasons the church uses images.

It is an inanimate object. He put it there for honor at times. So if you have an image of a wedding to honor you are just as guilty too according to the absolutely nooooo images crowd.

I walk into some churches with stained glass windows with biblical stories. The baptism of Christ, His birth and all the Passion of Christ. I know in the Holy Spirit within me confirming the beauty of it as I honor God.

In my book with accurate thinking you would be doing idolatry by sacrificing to the image. I have a picture of my mother. I honor her not worship her like the Good book also says "Honor your Mother or Father."

Mat 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

[Salvation]

Thanks for the corrections...Fingers move too quickly sometime.

porn

I think you realized what I meant.

Have a blessed Sunday — and let me know when the Cross is removed (because this thread) from your church.

[BipolarBob]

I think you realized what I meant.

Well at first I didn't and about the time I hit post I thought you could've meant pornography. a little too late

[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

***I doubt Sunday keeping is the Mark ****

I don’t believe this is official SDA doctrine, but some of the independent SDA missionaries used to preach it many years ago.

[BipolarBob]

I don’t believe this is official SDA doctrine

I have no idea as I broke from them many years ago. My reading of the Bible is the Mark will be an enforced sign of obedience. The hand or forehead would be symbolic of action (hand) and the forehead would be symbolic of how you think. In other words people will be forced to change how they think and what they do in a way contrary to Gods ways. You see evidence of that now with television. We are being told to be "tolerant" of homosexuality (Real meaning is acceptance). The anti "Stand your Ground" crowd and "guns are evil" that are coming out now are trying to change how people feel about self defense of their home and family. The division of mans law and Gods Law should always be examined to see if Caesar is claiming that which is Gods alone to direct.

[Former Fetus]

The line between veneration of what a statue represents, and worship of the statue is a very thin line

Very thin indeed! That's why I have problems with kneeling in front of a statue, lighting candles and praying. I used to do all these things growing up Catholic in Spain. I don't do it any longer.

Some here are arguing that veneration has nothing to do with "trust is to be reposed in images" to use the RCC's words.

Have you ever put an image of St. Christopher in your car, to keep you safe? My parents would not start the car without such an image.

Have you ever knelt in front of a statue of St. Anthony to ask for help finding something important you misplaced? A few years ago I was teaching at a Catholic HS here, in the US, when the chemistry tests the students had taken earlier that day misteriously "disappeared" from my desk. The headmistress wanted me to go to the chapel and pray in front of a statue of St. Anthony, asking him for help finding the papers.

Growing up in Spain I went to quite a few villages when they were taking the statue of the patron saint in procession, asking him or her to send rain. A few times they were asking for intercession, most times they were asking for the saint to provide the rain.

I could keep on going, but you get the idea!