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Hans Küng demands the Pope be deposed for schism
Catholic Church Conservation ^ | 23 May 2012 | Cathcon

Posted on 05/23/2012 1:09:06 PM PDT by Gillibrand

Pope should be deposed if he accepts the SSPX back

(Excerpt) Read more at cathcon.blogspot.com ...


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; dissident; hanskeung; hanskung; kung; pope; sspx

1 posted on 05/23/2012 1:09:13 PM PDT by Gillibrand
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To: Gillibrand

Pope Benedict XVI kisses a child as he leaves at the end of the weekly audience in St. Peter's Square at the Vatican May 23, 2012.
2 posted on 05/23/2012 1:26:43 PM PDT by Berlin_Freeper
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To: Gillibrand
Is Kung still in the Catholic church?

Honestly, one thing that was said earlier was if the SSPX got let back in, all the liberals would leave.

3 posted on 05/23/2012 1:30:53 PM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: Gillibrand

I thought he was dead.


4 posted on 05/23/2012 1:31:56 PM PDT by RPTMS
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To: Gillibrand

I am increasingly convinced that SSPX and similar harbor the unwavering and ever-enduring thread of Catholicism that is the True Church. So it is more a matter of accepting the Vatican back.


5 posted on 05/23/2012 1:34:10 PM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by nature not nurture TM)
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To: Gillibrand
The Pope would also be definitely included within the Church invalidly ordained bishops and priests. According to the Apostolic Constitution of Pope Paul VI "Pontificalis Romani recognitio" of 18 July (Cathcon- he gets the month wrong- should be June) 1968 the consecration of bishops and ordination of priests by Archbishop Lefebvre are not only illicit but also invalid (Cathcon- see text where Pope Paul introduces new forms of words for consecration and ordination and declares these forms necessary for validity) .

Oooooh, that is comical. Guess what folks, not only have FSSP and Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest members been consecrated under the old form, but I believe a number of SSPX priests were taken into the FSSP without need of regularization, much less reordination (per conversation with Rev. Emerson). So, these "invalidly ordained" priests have been recognized by Rome for decades now.

For Fr. Kueng, the only authoritative years are between 1963 and 1971.
6 posted on 05/23/2012 1:42:02 PM PDT by Dr. Sivana (There is no salvation in politics.)
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To: Gillibrand
Hans is super liberal has no weight in the Church.

Photobucket

But did you see the Black and white footage of the pope becoming a priest on the bottom of the blog. 1951. Extraordinary footage!

Two Thousand years of Acts 6:6-7

Acts6:6 They presented these men to the apostles, who prayed and laid their hands on them. 7 So the word of God spread. The number of disciples in Jerusalem increased rapidly, and a large number of priests became obedient to the faith.

7 posted on 05/23/2012 1:58:14 PM PDT by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass , Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: Gillibrand

All I know about Kung is that he was required reading at the Liberal, Feminist, Marxist, Liberation Theology Seminary where I once worked. (Back in the day...30 YEARS ago)

I didn’t read him, but I thought it was interesting.


8 posted on 05/23/2012 2:22:58 PM PDT by left that other site
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To: Gillibrand

Hans Kung is irrelevant, not to mention wrong.

Such forms apply to those who are bound to canonical form in union with the Catholic Church. Since schismatics were not in “union” with the Catholic Church, they were not consequently bound by the forms in use by the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church then does not suggest that they are invalid orders precisely because it would mean that they viewed the form in the Eastern Church as invalid.

This is a lame attempt at getting air time by an irrelevant theologian who’s mission is to sow discord against Christian unity.


9 posted on 05/23/2012 2:29:02 PM PDT by Bayard
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To: steve86
I am increasingly convinced that SSPX and similar harbor the unwavering and ever-enduring thread of Catholicism that is the True Church. So it is more a matter of accepting the Vatican back.

That mentality (with which I cannot be more in disagreement) is why I think that SSPX should absolutely NOT, under any circumstances, be reconciled as an organization to the Church. SSPX and its adherents have always, regardless of any canonical niceties, been schismatic at heart, fancying themselves more Catholic than the Pope. If individual members of SSPX wish to reconcile themselves to the Church, they like any others who have left are always welcome to return.

10 posted on 05/23/2012 2:29:58 PM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: redgolum
Is Kung still in the Catholic Church?

Yes, although he is forbidden to teach Catholic theology.

if the SSPX got let back in, all the liberals would leave.

That would be nice, but I don't think anything short of mass excommunication will make the liberals heretics leave.

11 posted on 05/23/2012 2:32:04 PM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Gillibrand
From Our Lady's Warriors>Dissent

Hans K¸ng Former theologian condemned by the Vatican.

12 posted on 05/23/2012 2:33:33 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: ArrogantBustard

I don’t know about “more Catholic than the Pope” but more Catholic than Vatican II, certainly.


13 posted on 05/23/2012 2:34:42 PM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by nature not nurture TM)
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To: steve86
I don’t know about “more Catholic than the Pope” but more Catholic than Vatican II, certainly.

You make a distinction without a difference. I note that radical "traditionalists" and radical modernists make the same error of viewing Vatican II as a rupture with the previous 1900 years of the Church.

It was not, and is not, and all the hideous abuses committed in the name of the spurious "spirit of vatican 2" are no more Catholic than the silly idea that a rogue bishop has the authority to go looping off on his own, creating an ecclesial community in defiance of the Pope.

A plague o' both their houses.

14 posted on 05/23/2012 2:41:00 PM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Gillibrand
Kung is one of the propagandists who spun and twisted what Vatican II actually said and permitted in order to support the US Bishops who wanted to become Protestant in all but name.

Given that he unenthusiastically accepts and endorses euthanasia it's hard to believe he's even still Christian much less Catholic. He's been ragging on the Pope over the SSPX for three or four years now so why is his repeating the same old hokum even news?

15 posted on 05/23/2012 2:58:42 PM PDT by Rashputin (Only Newt can defeat both the Fascist democrats and the Vichy GOP)
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To: ArrogantBustard
It was not, and is not

Sure it is. We were warned. "Starting about 1960 it will be more clear".

16 posted on 05/23/2012 3:25:56 PM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by nature not nurture TM)
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To: ArrogantBustard
You make a distinction without a difference

I consider those who try to make a distinction between Vatican II and the "abuses" of Vatican II the ones to be guilty of 'distinction without a difference'.

The proof is in the rotten fruits thereof, misinterpreted or not.

17 posted on 05/23/2012 3:30:31 PM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by nature not nurture TM)
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To: steve86

Well ... there you go again.


18 posted on 05/23/2012 4:44:18 PM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: steve86
I observe that a great many people use the Sacred Scriptures to support various theological beliefs that you and I certainly agree to be false and repugnant. 0bama, as a recent and egregious example, turned to the Scriptures to support his approval of institutionalized sodomy.

What does this then say of the Sacred Scriptures?

"The proof is in the rotten fruits thereof, misinterpreted or not. "

God forbid it!

No ... I think it unwise to judge things by their misuse.

19 posted on 05/23/2012 4:51:23 PM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Gillibrand; Sirius Lee; lilycicero; MaryLou1; glock rocks; JPG; Monkey Face; RIghtwardHo; ...

Freak extremes meet: Hans Küng becomes a Sedevacantist, declares Benedict XVI schismatic over SSPX

Not, this is not May Fools’ Day: heresiarch Hans Küng, who, “in his writings, has departed from the integral truth of Catholic faith, and therefore ... can no longer be considered a Catholic theologian nor function as such in a teaching role” (Declaration of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Dec. 15, 1979), has lost all notions of basic sacramental theology - and takes from this the most hilarious consequences. Or maybe he has just lost all shame, but that must have happened at the time of the Council.

Published today in the Südwest Presse:

HANS KÜNG - Papally provoked disobedience

Both in the official and in the alternative activities in the Mannheim Katholikentag*, the prevailing sentiment was one of resentment and frustration over the delayed reforms in the Church. In fierce contrast with that, Pope Benedict XVI prepares, apparently for Pentecost, the final reconciliation with the Catholic Church of the traditionalist Society of Saint Pius X, with its bishops and priests. This should happen even if the SSPX keeps rejecting key conciliar documents, having to be incorporated into the Church with the use of skillful canonical tactics. Before the Pope does this, he must be duly warned, not least by the bishops, because of the following:

1. The pope would be including in the Church bishops and priests that are definitely invalidly ordained. According to the Apostolic Constitution of Pope Paul VI “Pontificalis Romani recognitio”, of July 18, 1968, the ordination of bishops and priests by Archbishop Lefebvre is not only illegal but also invalid. This view is shared among others by a relevant member of the “Doctrinal Commission”, Karl Josef Becker, SJ, now a cardinal.**

2. With such a scandalous decision, Pope Benedict would, in his overall regretted isolation, be even more separated from the People of God. The classical doctrine regarding schism should be a warning to him. According to it, a schism of the Church happens when there is separation from the Pope, but also when the latter separates himself from the body of the Church. “Even the Pope could become a schismatic, if he will not guard the unity and communion proper to the whole body of the Church.” (Francisco Suárez, major Spanish theologian of the 16th/17th centuries).

3. A schismatic pope loses his position according to that same teaching of the constitution of the Church. At least, he cannot expect obedience. Pope Benedict would be therefore encouraging the already widespread popular movement of “disobedience” against a hierarchy that is disobedient to the Gospel. He would bear sole responsibility for the grave rift and the strife created inside the Church. Instead of reconciling with the ultra-conservative, anti-democratic, and anti-Semitic SSPX, the Pope should rather care about the majority of reform-minded Catholics and reconcile with the churches of the Reformation and the entire ecumenical movement. Thus he would unite, and not divide.

[*Rorate: the conference of Catholics in Germany that usually takes place every two years; the 2012 Katholikentag was held in Mannheim over the weekend. / ** This obviously makes no sense and Cardinal Becker would have never said such a thing. / - Source: Südwest Presse, in German - tip: German District of the SSPX.]


20 posted on 05/23/2012 5:19:36 PM PDT by narses
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To: narses
Hans Küng becomes a Sedevacantist

You made my day, thanks.

:))))

21 posted on 05/23/2012 5:31:13 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: annalex

:)

It is fascinating, when I started posting here the SSPX was seen as “schismatic, heretical and borderline sedevacantist”, now according to Hans Sinkspur, err Kung, err Keung - well whatever, it is the Pope himself who is the bad guy! What a difference a decade makes.


22 posted on 05/23/2012 5:39:55 PM PDT by narses
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To: narses
Sinkspur

These were the days...

23 posted on 05/23/2012 5:57:25 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: Dr. Sivana

Rome never claimed that they were invalidly ordained or consecrated. Rome consider even a lot of the sedavacantist ordinations valid. But illicit, of course.


24 posted on 05/23/2012 6:46:03 PM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: Gillibrand
Had to laugh at how Kung seeks refuge in papal authority when it suits him.

He calls SSPX orders not only illicit but also invalid. How does he know? "Well, look......it's right here in this document written by Paul VI", says he, "the Pope said so!!" thus playing the ace card of papal authority when it suits his purpose.

Next moment, he's telling us that the current Pope has no authority and must be ignored and indeed, dismissed.

Comical and arbitrary fellow.

25 posted on 05/23/2012 6:56:04 PM PDT by marshmallow (.)
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To: steve86
I am increasingly convinced that the Vatican should apprehend Kung, the head of LCWR, Rembert Weakland, and two soi disant SSPX bishops De Mallerais, and Williamson, and try them before the Holy Office, and after conviction, burn the lot of them at the stake in Vatican Square. See, I am weakening on Gallaraga and Fellay but they get the same treatment in the absence of full scale public repentance before the next anniversary of Blessed John Paul II's death.

Accepting the Vatican back??? You know that is the same impious idea expressed by most National "Catholic" Reporter fish wrapper readers and phonies. As to SSPX, ecclesiastical revolution against legitimate authority is NOT TRADITIONAL CATHOLICISM. Has not been, is not and will never be.

26 posted on 05/23/2012 7:09:08 PM PDT by BlackElk (Viva Cristo Rey! Tom Hoefling for POTUS! Viva Cristo Rey!)
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To: steve86; ArrogantBustard; AnAmericanMother
steve86:

Unless your other name is Benedict XVI, no one died and left you with any authority to judge popes.

27 posted on 05/23/2012 7:15:22 PM PDT by BlackElk (Viva Cristo Rey! Tom Hoefling for POTUS! Viva Cristo Rey!)
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To: narses

Hans Kung’s manifest lunacy does not by any means clear SSPX of any of the many charges against it.


28 posted on 05/23/2012 7:43:26 PM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: ArrogantBustard

True that, but the Papal fiat of His Holiness Benedict XVI will.


29 posted on 05/23/2012 7:47:14 PM PDT by narses
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To: ArrogantBustard

The only problem with your position is you are being Catholic than the Pope to do it? You think the Pope doesn’t know what he is doing. He’s been involved with this for more than 30 years.


30 posted on 05/23/2012 7:47:49 PM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: RPTMS
"I thought he was dead."

Same here. Oh, well...

31 posted on 05/23/2012 8:22:03 PM PDT by redhead (Libs can't win without cheating--Conservatives don't have to cheat to win)
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To: narses; nickcarraway

His Holiness will exercise his authority as he sees fit. Unlike some folks, I acknowledge that he may exercise it in ways I don’t like ... but that the authority is his not mine.

Nick, I would hope that by now you would know better than to presume to read my mind or tell me what I’m thinking. It’s rude, it’s a violation of forum rules ... and you’re mistaken in any case.


32 posted on 05/23/2012 9:43:30 PM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: johngrace

This gave me chills!! The apostolic succession and the unbroken chain of priests formed as a result of the laying on of hands at ordination is so miraculou and joyful. The Catholic Chuch as a supernatural institution is awesome!!


33 posted on 05/24/2012 3:52:50 AM PDT by stonehouse01 (Equal rights for unborn women)
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To: stonehouse01
Amen! Amen!

Truly Amazing!

Why would Luke write this in Acts 5 for All Christians especially for the Catholic Church for Two thousand years. This Governing Organization for centuries still with a leadership tracing back. If it was for naught it would of died out but no we are still here since even this incident in Acts. It is the Holy Spirit supernatural! Amen!

Act 5:

32 And we are witnesses of these things and the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to all that obey him.

33 When they had heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they thought to put them to death.

34 But one in the council rising up, a Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, respected by all the people, commanded the men to be put forth a little while.

35 And he said to them: Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what you intend to do, as touching these men.

36 For before these days rose up Theodas, affirming himself to be somebody, to whom a number of men, about four hundred, joined themselves: who was slain; and all that believed him were scattered, and brought to nothing.

37 After this man, rose up Judas of Galilee, in the days of the enrolling, and drew away the people after him: he also perished; and all, even as many as consented to him, were dispersed.

38 And now, therefore, I say to you, refrain from these men, and let them alone; for if this council or this work be of men, it will come to nought;

39 But if it be of God, you cannot overthrow it, lest perhaps you be found even to fight against God. And they consented to him.

40 And calling in the apostles, after they had scourged them, they charged them that they should not speak at all in the name of Jesus; and they dismissed them.

41 And they indeed went from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were accounted worthy to suffer reproach for the name of Jesus.

42 And every day they ceased not in the temple, and from house to house, to teach and preach Christ Jesus.

HAYDOCK'S COMMENTARY ON ACTS 5

Ver. 34. Gamaliel. He that had been St. Paul's master, according to St. Chrysostom, advised them to forbear, and do nothing rashly. [Ver. 38.] Meddle not with these men; literally, go from them.[6] For, saith he, if this be the work of men only, it will soon fall to nothing; but if it be from God, you cannot hinder it, and you will only make yourselves guilty, by resisting the designs of God.

They consented to him, so far as not to put them to death; but they made them be scourged, which they rejoiced at; and they dismissed them with reiterated threats. (Witham) --- Gamaliel was the master of St. Paul, Barnabas, Stephen, and others, and favoured the Christians. St. Clement and Ven. Bede think he was then a Christian, but concealed his conversion at the instigation of the apostles, that he might have an opportunity of defending Christ in the council.

He afterwards professed his faith publicly, and was canonized with is son Abibas. See Baronius, 3d of Aug. (Tirinus)

Ver. 39. Time, and the evident success of Christ's Church, prove it to be of God. No violence of the Jews, no persecution of heathen princes, no attempts of domestic adversaries, heretics, schismatics, or evil livers, have been able to prevail against it.

Men of superior abilities have made violent attacks against it; their memory, and that of their disciples, has either been buried and forgotten, or liveth only in malediction and infamy.

Let, then, no Catholic be dispirited, because modern heresies continue; Arian and other heresies have continued much longer, have been more powerfully supported by temporal power, and yet have come to nothing. The Catholic religion was the first, and it will be the last religion.! Ver. 41. Rejoicing. The joy of the apostles on the present occasion, is one of the greatest of miracles. Only the yoke of Jesus could make this sweet.

But so the faithful servants of God have always found it. In tribulation, they abounded in inward peace and joy, which made them insensible of their exterior sufferings. (Haydock)

Praise Be To Jesus!!

AMENNNN !!!!!

34 posted on 05/24/2012 5:46:11 AM PDT by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass , Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: stonehouse01; johngrace; All
Everybody go watch the video!

In the procession out of the cathedral and through the public square, you can see the faces of the newly ordained. And there is Fr. Ratzinger, looking incredibly young and very serious.

35 posted on 05/24/2012 8:33:08 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGS Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: johngrace

Thanks for the relevant Acts excerpts!! This is all so pertinent with Pentecost approaching. Pentecost is my favorite Feast!! Well - I always think that for every feast as it approaches. Hehe!


36 posted on 05/24/2012 8:48:11 AM PDT by stonehouse01 (Equal rights for unborn women)
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To: AnAmericanMother

http://cathcon.blogspot.com/2012/03/film-of-ordination-of-joseph-ratzinger.html


37 posted on 05/24/2012 5:45:55 PM PDT by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass , Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: AnAmericanMother

Amen!!!!


38 posted on 05/24/2012 5:50:52 PM PDT by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass , Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: stonehouse01

Amen!! Praise Jesus!!!


39 posted on 05/24/2012 5:52:37 PM PDT by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass , Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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