The Big Discovery [by David, former Presbyterian]

Journeyof ImperfectSaint.blogspot.com ^ | October 4, 2009 | David

[Salvation]

Sunday, October 4, 2009

The Big Discovery

        I made some good friends outside my church and found out that they were all Catholics.  Now, I did not know much about Catholicism at the time.  By the way, the Mass did seem somewhat mysterious to me externally.  In fact, what little I had heard from other church members was all negative.  There was a Mrs. J at my church, who had just retired from her missionary post in China.  She was such a kind and endearing soul to all.  One day she got back from visiting someone at a hospital and looked extremely sad and disturbed.  It turned out that when she got to the hospital room, she saw that a Catholic priest was already there with the patient.  Now the question was if the patient would ever get to heaven. 

 

        Nevertheless, my Catholic friends all looked quite normal and happy.  Then could the Catholic Church, the largest church in the the world, be in error?  It so happened that at that time I was also beginning to question my Protestant faith.  The fact that there were numerous different denominations around the world bothered me.  Also, as a Protestant, whether you're a minister or lay person, you are free to marry and divorce any number of times.  It's hard to see that Jesus would be happy with these two facts.  Since I am the kind of person who always likes to find the answer to any question that's important, I decided to look into Catholicism.

 

        I made up my mind not to talk to anyone about my investigation.  I was single then and had a lot of free time to myself.  The local public library housed an excellent collection of books on Catholicism, so I started borrowing books on the subject.  I read every weekend, even taking notes as I read.  The went on for over a year.  I read all those books that viciously attack the Catholic Church too, but somehow they did not affect me much because I sensed that these attacks could not have been prompted by the Holy Spirit.  The books that really helped me were the ones on early Church history.  I could see that the continuity was there and the beliefs and practices of the early Church had been preserved to this day in the Catholic Church.  The only conclusion I could come to was that the Catholic Church was indeed the church Jesus had come and established.  Like Christ himself, the Church, being his body, must be accepted (or rejected) totally, with no middle ground. 

 

        Here's some advice for those who seek the truth.  Your chances of success will greatly improve if, first, you start out with a completely open mind and secondly, go to the source(s) directly to get the facts.  Many who misunderstand the Catholic Church today have already made up their mind that the Church is wrong, thus never bothering to pick up a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church to find out what the Church really teaches.  This is being close-minded. 

[RFEngineer]

“That a spouse remains for an extended period in hopes of repairing the fault and becomes convinced they can not is none of your business, and certainly not yours to judge.”

Who’s judging (politicians don’t count)? They get divorced civilly, and the church does whatever it wants to recognize the results of the “unmarriage”

“No, it’s Protestant duplicity when one keeps insisting an annulment is the same thing as a divorce when it manifestly is not. “

An annulment and a divorce have the same result - a church recognized dissolution of marriage. Catholics pretend it never happened, Protestants just divorce. It’s the same result - you disagree that it is the same result, the very definition of duplicity - an argument I attempted to avoid with Catholics by pointing out it’s simply “unmarriage”.

[metmom]

No, it's Protestant duplicity when one keeps insisting an annulment is the same thing as a divorce when it manifestly is not.

What's manifest is that two people who got married in a church ceremony are now officially declared unmarried any longer and the result, the manifest results, are the same, whether you call it divorce or annulment. What's manifest is the man and woman are no longer called husband and wife and are split up. Same end.

That which we call a rose by any other name......

[papertyger]

Long and short of it is that the Catholic church cannot take any credit for my desire to get a hold of God's word and read and learn of it myself under the guidance of the Holy Spirit

That would be rejecting God's word just a surely as a child that won't eat their brussel sprouts.

It's not the Holy Spirit guiding people to just eat their fish sticks and fries....

[papertyger]

An annulment and a divorce have the same result

So do murder and natural death: are they the same?

[papertyger]

What's manifest is that two people who got married in a church ceremony are now officially declared unmarried any longer and the result, the manifest results, are the same, whether you call it divorce or annulment. What's manifest is the man and woman are no longer called husband and wife and are split up. Same end.

If that's your "Holy Spirit guidance system" you need to learn about Jesus.

[RFEngineer]

“So do murder and natural death: are they the same?”

Doesn’t matter, even the Catholic Church would let the widow remarry. No annulment necessary.

[papertyger]

Oh please.

I didn’t ask you about marriage. I asked you about manners of death.

My question demonstrates the fallacy of imputing equivalency by results. Continually bleating “same results” is either wanton ignorance or intellectual dishonesty, neither of which are suited to one who names the name of Christ.

[Jvette]

No that means that there are 1.2 billion Catholics who are wrong. And to the extent that they reject Church teaching, they are actually Protestant, though they might call themselves Catholic.

For crying out loud, how often have Protestants maintained that Catholics are not allowed to think for themselves?

There are doctrines, intrinsic to the nature of God, Jesus and the believer that are such the Church holds them to be resolute, absolute truth.

But, in opposition to the specious belief that the Church mandates every action and thought of a Catholic, the truth is that the Church offers her followers, followers of Jesus, a sure norm, a lifeboat in the stormy seas by which they can compare their beliefs and understanding of the Bible and know when they are in union with Christ and when they are not.

It is profoundly sad that without that sure norm, that absolute authority, there are those who read Scripture and believe that the Holy Spirit has guided them to proclaim/believe/accept that Jesus would not be opposed to abortion, euthanasia, eugenics and homosexual “marriage”.

[RFEngineer]

Death is not a sacrament. Marriage is. Unless of course it was a Catholic non-marriage type of marriage to be determined at some future unspecified time.

[boatbums]

I have to agree with RFEngineer here and "fat" Teddy is a good example. You said he was granted the annulment by the Catholic Church because it was determined he never had the intent to keep his vows of fidelity. First of all, that is going by his word, secondly, his wife Joan certainly had the intent and third, they were married for many years and had multiple children - all factors that SHOULD have been taken into account before Teddy was lifted off the hook and allowed to REMARRY in the same Catholic Church to another Catholic. How can this NOT be seen by those outside the Catholic Church as blatant hypocrisy?

The law of the U.S., today, allows "no-fault" divorce and so does the Catholic Church, it appears. As long as a suitable excuse is provided, an annulment is a given which permits remarriage IN the church and that definitely is NOT following the stated dogmas of the Church. The criticism is deserved.

[papertyger]

It is profoundly sad that without that sure norm, that absolute authority, there are those who read Scripture and believe that the Holy Spirit has guided them to proclaim/believe/accept that Jesus would not be opposed to abortion, euthanasia, eugenics and homosexual “marriage”.

The only thing worse than the evil men do that gets blamed on the devil is the hubris that gets blamed on the Holy Spirit.

[Natural Law]

"Believers know you need to be believers in Jesus to be saved regardless of denomination."

And your 7 year posting history is a supporting testimony that being Catholic believe in Jesus and are just as saved as those in the store front churches so many "individual believers" attend?

[Jvette]

One is saved when one believes and one is baptized when one believes. Your argument is not with me, it with the Bible which says as much, Jesus says as much.

Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Why does one need the Holy Spirit? Why did Jesus send Him to the Apostles and disciples and to us?

And yes, the shed blood of Jesus saves, opens the gates of heaven and repairs our relationship with God. But, if that is all that people need to be saved and have eternal life with God, then why does one have to believe? Why isn’t everyone saved? Why must one repent?

*****The point is that even though these differing denomination are reading the VERY SAME Bible, they are coming to VERY DIFFERENT conclusions about some fundamental things.*****

*****Nor fundamental things whether you think so or not. I’m telling you they’re not and since it is not your faith we are discussing, you have no ability to decide what are fundamental differences or not. It’s up to those of us whose faith it is to define it.****

And why is that you get to decide that? By what authority do you say that the very nature of God, Jesus and the believer are not fundamental differences?

Catholics don’t get the privilege of defining Protestant beliefs for them.

I am hardly doing that. I can go to numerous websites or read tracts or books written by Protestants that define those beliefs. I have not tried to define yours.

In fact, I never engaged you at all. I asked a question, a sincere one of another poster and you jumped in with all the usual, trite, shallow garbage that is spouted by a bevy of virulent agitators whenever Catholics post a thread like this.

And why is that a protestant can tell me what I believe as a Catholic, even after I have declared that not to be so?

Practice what you preach.

[papertyger]

I didn’t ask about sacraments. I didn’t ask about marriage, Catholic or otherwise.

Would it make it easier for you to understand if I call it “unlife?”

Are murder and natural death morally equal since they both result in unlife?

[papertyger]

As long as a suitable excuse is provided, an annulment is a given which permits remarriage IN the church and that definitely is NOT following the stated dogmas of the Church

If a "suitable excuse is provided" who are you to invalidate it?

[Jvette]

****And once you did these things, you never once spoke with or studied Scripture with any other human being?

I never said that. We were discussing what caused me to feel the need to buy a Bible and anything other than addressing that, what my knowledge about God and Jesus was before that, does not enter into the equation.****

I never said that you did say that. Thus my question and not a statement.

[Natural Law]

"Death is not a sacrament. Marriage is. Unless of course it was a Catholic non-marriage type of marriage to be determined at some future unspecified time."

Do you think a marriage between a man and a seven year old girl is a valid marriage or should the Church nullify it?

Do you think that a marriage against the will of either party is a valid marriage or should the Church nullify it?

Do you think the marriage involving a seriously mentally disabled or unconscious person is invalid or should the Church nullify it?

Do you think that the marriage to someone who is already married to one or more other persons is a valid marriage or should the Church nullify it?

These are just a few of the more obvious grounds on which the Church determines that the marriage was never a valid marriage. Can you at least agree that there are some legitimate reasons to annul a marriage?

Peace be with you

[papertyger]

And why is that a protestant can tell me what I believe as a Catholic, even after I have declared that not to be so?

Dey gots de Holy Spirit, don'cha know!

[Jvette]

*****The Holy Spirit impressed it on me*****

And, for that matter, how did you know it was the Holy Spirit?

How did you even know who the Holy Spirit is?

And did you know when you bought your Bible that it is the inerrant, inspired word of God?

And how did you know which Bible to purchase considering the huge number of various translations?

And does this Bible you own have commentary?

[papertyger]

And why is that a protestant can tell me what I believe as a Catholic, even after I have declared that not to be so?

Dey gots de Holy Spirit, don'cha know!