Pope: Everyone, Even Atheists, Want to See the Face of God

Asia News ^ | 1/16/13

[marshmallow]

General audience, Benedict XVI defines the Incarnation as "something unimaginable, the face of God can be seen, the process that began with Abraham is fulfilled." The Week of Prayer for Christian Unity, he asks "for the great gift" to "proclaim together that Jesus is the Savior of the world."

Vatican City (AsiaNews) - "The desire to know the face of God is in every man, even the atheists," but this desire is only realized by following Christ, in whom, in the Incarnation, "something unimaginable took place, the journey that began with Abraham is fulfilled. He is the Son, the fullness of all Revelation; the mediator who shows us the face of God. "

And "to proclaim together that Jesus is the Saviour of the world" Benedict XVI asked for incessant prayers for "the great gift" of Christian unity in the forthcoming week, which begins on the 18th of this month.

Previously, in his catechesis, he again reflected on the meaning of Christmas, in a commentary on John's Gospel in which the apostle Philip asks Jesus to show them the Father. The answer of Jesus, "introduces us to the heart of the Church's Christological faith; For the Lord says: "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father" (Jn 14:9).This expression summarizes the novelty of the New Testament, the novelty that appeared in the cave of Bethlehem: God can be seen, he showed his face is visible in Jesus Christ".

The theme of "seeking the face of God" is present throughout the Old Testament, so much so that the Hebrew term "face", occurs no less than 400 times, 100 of which refer to God." The of Jewish religion which the religion forbids all images, "for God can not be depicted," and "can not be reduced to an object," tells us that "God...

[metmom]

Omniscient (all knowing) is omniscient (all knowing).

Any being capable of knowing everything in time is capable of knowing everything outside of time.

It’s OUTSIDE of time, not before time or after time. If it were before or after, it would be within time.

Eternity is occurring right now OUTSIDE of time.

[P-Marlowe]

So your answer is “No”?

[CynicalBear]

>> Why can't you just answer yes or no?<<

When someone says God is omniscient it means that God is ALL knowing. The yes or no answer to any subsequent questions of “did God know” has thus been answered in the affirmative. Re asking a question of “did God know” requires no additional answers of yes or no. All means all, not just a little bit of all or just a part of all or even most of all. It means all as in God knows everything there ever was to know, everything there is to know and everything there will be to know.

[HarleyD]

Sure it was a legitimate offer. It is exactly the same offer God makes to everyone. Here's the terms of the contract:

You (the rich, young ruler) sell all that you have and I'll (the Lord) will have you follow me.

This isn't any different than:

You (party of the first part) keep all the Laws and Commandments and I'll (party of the second part) will give you salvation.

or

You (don't eat the fruit) and (I'll) make sure you live.

Our Lord Jesus' offer was meant to exposed the truth to the ruler-that he couldn't keep God's commandments as he claimed he had done.

And we shouldn't be too hard on the ruler. Can any of us keep the commandments? That is why we need grace.

[xzins]

Yes, I agree with that: “Allowing it and commanding or causing it to happen are not the same.”

[metmom]

It’s YES!!!

Omniscient is ALL knowing. What part of *all knowing* don’t you get? All is all.

God is outside of time.

If there were something outside of God, then perhaps one might be able to conclude that He might not know it, but if everything is contained within God, so to speak, how could He NOT know it?

[xzins]

Foreknowledge COUPLED WITH the ability to create is a form of predestination, but it does not absolve the creature of his/her free will decisions that were foreknown.

They are not acted on except by the man/woman doing them, and they are not accountable until actually acted upon. As the bible says, “The WAGES of sin is death.” IOW, committed sin has consequences.

[HarleyD]

By stating that God “ordained” someone to sin the would mean that God ordered that person to sin.

My statement was:

3) God ordained it to happen

Would you agree with the rewording and expanded version of this?

3) God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions; yet has He not decreed anything because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.

[Dutchboy88]

"NO, not “all kinds” but “every kind”."

Good morning. And, thank you for making my point. God certainly wants every kind of man to be saved, and we should pray for every kind of man.

[xzins]

There is no disconnect, CB. You are taking offense at someone sounding out the different aspects of your belief on God’s omniscience. To ask if there was ever a time that God didn’t know everything is perfectly reasonable since there are entire groups that believe that God is omniscient and that He can remain that way without knowing every contingency.

The latest iteration of that idea is “open theology”.

It is always better simply to be forbearing and to assume there are reasons someone would ask a question. I’ve known Marlowe for a decade, and he is not a rude man. He is, however, extremely experienced and astute in theology, as are metmom, Harley, and Alamo.

[xzins]

I agree with all you said. The thrust of my comment is the observation that Jesus did at one point make a personal call to at least one person to “Come follow me” and have that person turn Him down.

[metmom]

I wasn’t referring to you as that other FReeper arguing about God’s omniscience. I can PM you his name, but don’t want to mention him here and have to courtesy ping him and drag him into it.

[Dutchboy88]

?

[metmom]

I see where you’re coming from and agree with it.

I was using predestination in the sense of predetermined or orchestrated so that the individual had no choice. IOW, the God controls everything so we have to do what has been ordained by God that we do.

[HarleyD]

...and MAKING him (us) do it are two different things.

No one said God MADE Adam sin. In fact I've been very clear that Adam was an independent thinker, the tree was placed in the garden, God created the circumstance, God knew what would happen. Those are all facts. That's it.

There is nothing there that would suggest God MADE Adam take the fruit.

[xzins]

I agree. If we are robots acting out a program we are absolved of moral guilt.

[metmom]

To ask if there was ever a time that God didn’t know everything is perfectly reasonable since there are entire groups that believe that God is omniscient and that He can remain that way without knowing every contingency.

The problem is that the question has been answered several times and keeps being asked. That's frustrating.

The debate about whether God knows every contingency is pointless as there is no Scriptural support for it, or even mention of it as far as I know.

As far as I see it, God DOES know every contingency. It would be part of His omniscience. It would enable Him to make sure that all things work together for good for those called according to His purpose.

[metmom]

Exactly. Which is one reason I believe God gives us the ability/privilege/option/whatever, to choose.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you, dear brothers and sisters in Christ, for sharing your insights!

The change in subject back to time tempts me to start yet another sidebar on the physics of time and how badly it warps our impressions, i.e. the "observer problem."

Instead, I shall offer this passage on the sovereignty of God:

I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else, [there is] no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that [there is] none beside me. I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things]. - Isaiah 45:5-7

By my understanding of that passage, God alone is the Creator ex nihilo (out of nothing) of "all that there is." Or to put it another way, there is nothing of which anything can be made but the will of God, including His permissive will.

And it is sensible to me for how can we children know light if we'd not seen darkness, good if we'd not seen evil?

Indeed, the forbidden tree in Eden (look but don't eat) was the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil not the Tree of the Knowledge of Good alone. Seems to me, its purpose could be no more than teaching the difference.

Jesus is gathering the family ...

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. - John 1:12-13

so it is sensible to me that He also wants us to understand the difference.

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. - Rev 1:8

[Bainbridge]

I don’t play that game. You know precisely what I mean.
Anyway, you are not responsible : omnicausality !