Posted on 01/31/2013 8:44:30 PM PST by Dallas59
When I come by my friends house they are always there. They are polite to me but act like I'm interfering. Anyone here associated with them or been to their church? Thanks.
Sola Scriptura is not Solo Scriptura. The Bible does not exist in a vacuum and nor can it be intrepretted in such a manner but rather must be considered in light of tradition, at least insofar as tradition is not contradictory to scripture. This issue has been settled in tradition already, using arguments which were scriptural in nature, made in light of interpretations handed down from the apostles.
The position of the Jehovah’s Witnesses regarding the Trinity is not novel. It was proposed by Arius quite a while back, who formulated that Christ was homoiousis (of like substance as the Father) instead of homoousis (of the same substance as the Father). That “iota” of difference, so to speak, was considered to make all the difference when it came to theology. Without going into detail (I’m in a car typing this on my phone), people far more qualified than us have already established that the Trinity is the teaching of Scripture. When something has been established as the teaching of Scripture it is not our place to reject it, as such is to call God a liar.
If modern Christians are a bit reluctant to debate this, it is mostly a matter of not wanting to reinvent the wheel regarding arguments that have been made long ago and settled. St. Athanasius in his Discourses Against the Arians makes the case far better than any of us could hope to do — anything we write would mostly be rehashing his arguments. I suggest looking up his Discourses and going through his arguments, as then we might have suitable grounds for debate on the matter.
Again, I find your desire to defend the potential of JWs to be saved admirable, if perhaps misplaced. All the same, I remind you that JWs absolutely do not extend that same courtesy to non-JWs and I hope you are as vocal in defending our salvation when talking to them as you are of theirs when talking to us.
Ultimately, all we can do is trust in the mercy and justice of God in judging men’s hearts regarding whether their faith was sincere or not.
It’s been challenged right in the thread already - that JW do not believe in the divinity of Christ. That they believe that there is no hell and the destruction of souls in the afterlife.
All three of these things are contrary to Christianity.
I agree. God is so much greater than any of us can ever hope to comprehend that I don't believe the difference between a non-trinitarian versus trinitarian understanding of him is significant when compared against his greatness.
They changed the words of the Bible. Send them the passages that discuss that.
Today your friend could come back into the Catholic Church and receive Communion. With the JWs, your friend never will, because your friend is not now and never will be one of the 144,000.
Very well said. God knows our hearts better than we do... while I do think there is a correct position on the matter and that the truth really does matter, I also believe that God isn’t going to hold honest errors against those who have otherwise earnestly put their faith in Him.
I guess my view is that if the matter was important to God, he would have made it clear in scripture. Instead, a formal triadic coordination of God, Christ and the Holy Spirit is only found in a few verses.
The baptismal commission in Matt 28:19 and the apostolic benediction in 2 Cor 13:14 are the clearest examples of triadic coordination. Other texts formulate the trinity in a looser fashion by asserting that the work of the three is the same work (1 Cor 12:4-6; Jude 20-21; 1 Pet 1:2; Rev 1:4-7) but they do not formalize the trinity.
Pairwise coordination of God and Christ is more common (John 14:1; Rom 1:7; Rev 5:13) with Chirst and the Spirit less common (1 Cor 6:11; Rom 15:30; Heb 10:29).
Then the spirit appears in numerous verses as a seemingly autonomous agent (Acts 1:16; Acts 15:8; Heb 3:7; Rom 5:3-5; Rom 8:4; Rom 8:27; Gal 3:2; Gal 5:16-25; 2 Cor 3:2; 2 Cor 5:5). The spirit is also called the Spirit of God (1 Cor 2:11-12; Rom 8:9-17) and the Spirit of Christ (Rom 8:9), etc.
If modern Christians are a bit reluctant to debate this, it is mostly a matter of not wanting to reinvent the wheel regarding arguments that have been made long ago and settled. St. Athanasius in his Discourses Against the Arians makes the case far better than any of us could hope to do — anything we write would mostly be rehashing his arguments. I suggest looking up his Discourses and going through his arguments, as then we might have suitable grounds for debate on the matter.
Ok but I can't promise when I'll be able to get to Athansius.
Again, I find your desire to defend the potential of JWs to be saved admirable, if perhaps misplaced.
When it came to standing up to Hitler andhis neo-paganism, JWs did much more admirably than the mainstream Protestants and Catholics. As a group, the JWs by and large didn't bow down to Hitler nor serve him and they suffered mightily for it. If the same could be said of the mainstream Christians in Germany, history would have followed a radically different course.
All the same, I remind you that JWs absolutely do not extend that same courtesy to non-JWs and I hope you are as vocal in defending our salvation when talking to them as you are of theirs when talking to us.
Arguments for and against sola fide constantly rage here on FR. JWs are basically part of that camp rejecting sola fide on grounds that some form of works is also required for salvation.
Ultimately, all we can do is trust in the mercy and justice of God in judging men’s hearts regarding whether their faith was sincere or not.
Agreed.
If he's not saved, then he's not going to worry about anything. It doesn't matter what he "becomes" be it JW, Muslim, Hindu, etc. And unless God opens his hearts and mind to the gospel, there's nothing you can do. So if he's not worry, neither should you be.
That being said, we can all pray for this individual that God would grant His mercy and grace to shine in His life. May He use you as a vehicle of His saving grace to light his path to the one and true God. I would also suggest inviting him to church and even give him a bible. God will reward you. Cast your bread upon the waters and it will not return void. That doesn't mean he'll come to Christ nor should you be discouraged. But it does mean God will bless you for your sincere attempts and perhaps snatch someone from the fires of hell.
You would be in error, but you would not necessarily belong to a false religion. If you belong to a church that is Trinitarian and confesses Christ as the Son of God incarnate--i.e., it confesses the Nicene Creed--yet that church is in error on the efficacy of baptism, your church would be considered heterodox rather than heretical. This is not to excuse or condone error, though. However, the JWs and the Mormons do not even get God right, so they are considered outside the scope of Christendom.
‘What should he worry about’?
I would say his big worry should be hell. I’m not trying to be a holy roller here but Jesus said, I am the Way the Truth and the Light, no man cometh unto the Father but by Me.
They reject Jesus’ sacrifice and look to the Father for salvation through works.
‘What should he worry about’?
I would say his big worry should be hell. I’m not trying to be a holy roller here but Jesus said, I am the Way the Truth and the Light, no man cometh unto the Father but by Me.
They reject Jesus’ sacrifice and look to the Father for salvation through works.
That's another thing that always puzzled me about JWs. By now, those coveted 144,000 spots have to be filled. Everyone else simply dies. No afterlife. So WHY all the effort to convert people to JW? I mean, can't you be an athiest and believe in no afterlife?
Then you can have birthday cake, too.
One place that I really get worked up about is the no blood transfusions edict. Even for kids.
This is based on the OLD testament proscription of eating meat that has the "life" in it. I.e. blood.
So in the JW view, when you get a transfusion you are "eating" blood, which is a no-no. To the point where you must die to not "sin".
Again, why the fuss over the OT rules? Jesus created a NEW covenant. Not one where you get into heaven by following arcane rituals.
JWs don't keep Kosher, though. Can't figure that one out either.
In dogmatics we call this a "felicitous inconsistency." For example, a person's church may deny the efficacy of infant baptism and turn the Sacrament of Holy Baptism into Law (our obedience) instead of Gospel (God's gift). But in spite of that error, if the Word of God is preached in that church, and people cling to the cross of Christ as their only hope, they will be saved. That still does not excuse their error on baptism, which robs Christians of the comfort God has for them in that sacrament. And if that error would mislead people into thinking they are saved because of their "obedience" or their "giving their heart to Jesus" (decision theology), that could indeed endanger their salvation.
My best friend in high school (and still) was raised JW by his mother. She converted after marriage. Friend left school early every day to go door to door. He worked at the big HQ in NYC for a year for slave wages. He finally left and was shunned. His mother would not speak to him by orders of the head muckety mucks. I would go to his house and she was friendly to me while ignoring him. He said that was because there was always a chance I might convert, in her mind. It took decades for her to begin speaking to him. He was there for her death, surrounded by non-talking relatives. They all still shun him.
He’ll never get another birthday cake.
You seem to be saying that it bothers you that the Catholic church is an ancient monarchy, clearly not something founded in 19th Century America. **Guilty as charged**
The Pope is not God, and "Holy Father" is not God's name. But which is worse, to make the Pope seem a little too close to God, or to make Jesus Christ less than God?
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.